Our partner

Marilyn Monroe

Histrionic Personality Disorder message board, open discussion, and online support group.
Forum rules
Attention Please. You are entering the Histrionic Personality Disorder forum. Please read this carefully.

Given the unique propensities of those who are faced with the issues of HPD, topics at times may be uncomfortable for non HP readers. Discussions related to HPD behavior are permitted here, within the context of deeper understanding of the commonalties shared by members. Indulging or encouraging these urges is not what this forum is intended for.

Conversations here can be triggering for those who have suffered abuse from HPDs. .
Non HPD users are welcome to post here, But their questions Must have a respectful tone.
If you are a NON and have issues with an past relationship with an HPD person, it is suggested that you Post in a Relationship forum. Here is a link to that forum: relationship/

For those who have no respect for either this illness or for those who are living with it, please do not enter this forum. Discrimination of Personality Disorders is not tolerated on this site.

Moderators are present here to ensure that members treat each other with dignity and respect. If topics become overly graphic or drift from having a healthy perspective, moderators will intervene.
Please feel free to contact a moderator if you have any questions or concerns.

Best Regards,
The Team

Marilyn Monroe

Postby orion13213 » Sun May 13, 2012 8:33 pm

Marilyn Monroe (Norma Jeane Mortensen, June 1, 1926 – August 5, 1962), has long been considered by many to be the most famous and tragic case of a person suffering from HPD. I found this excellent work recently and couldn't resist sharing it (with all proper respects to the author).
Warning: this case conceptualization addresses Monroe's alleged suicide - although it is the author's opinion that she died of an accidental overdose. Also described are traumatic events in Monroe's childhood, which may trigger adverse emotional reactions in some.

Quoted in its entirety from
http://voices.yahoo.com/marilyn-monroes ... tml?cat=72
[begin quote]

Marilyn Monroe's Intriguing Psychological Profile…
A Case Conceptualization of Marilyn Monroe
By Christy Sechrist, on the Yahoo Contributor Network
(The author is/was a fourth-year Psychology major at Wright State University who plans to go to graduate school, in order to earn a doctoral degree in Clinical Psychology, with emphases in Psychoneurobiology and Child Psychology. She is a member of Psi Chi: The National Honor Society in Psychology, The National Scholars Honor Society and The Ohio Psychological Association).

Marilyn Monroe has been a public figure for six decades, but what has been considered to be the truth of her life has turned out to be mere speculation. Her childhood experiences and family history contributed to complexes she would struggle with in her adult life. Her adulthood, most of which she spent in the public eye, was far from uneventful. Several themes reappear throughout her lifetime. Considering the diagnostic axes, Marilyn can be evaluated and diagnosed with comorbid disorders. Several personality theories can also account for her behavior and reported thoughts, feelings, and emotions. Marilyn Monroe's childhood experiences shaped her personality as an adult and led to the misinterpretation of her death as a suicide.

Marilyn Monroe was born Norma Jeane Mortensen in Los Angeles on June 1, 1926. Her family has a strong history of being misdiagnosed with mental disorders, including her grandmother, grandfather, and mother. Her great-grandfather, Tilford Hogan, committed suicide by hanging (Spoto, 1993, p. 31). Her uncle, Marion Monroe, left to run errands and simply never returned (Spoto, 1993, p. 55). Her mother was a complicated figure on her own. Gladys Pearl Monroe Baker Mortensen was married and divorced twice and left her two older children to the care of neighbors (Spoto, 1993, page eight). Both Gladys and her mother, Della, were divorcees who seemed to be dependent upon men. Gladys was very nomadic and enjoyed the company of men, a cue she took from Della (Spoto, 1993, p. 2). Gladys had falsified Norma Jeane's father's identity on her birth certificate (as it was unknown). This led to Norma Jeane being known by several different surnames. She fluctuated between Mortensen, Mortenson, and Baker (Spoto, 1993, p. 14). When she was just two weeks old, Norma Jeane was left with foster parents, Ida and Albert Bolender (Spoto, 1993, p. 17). Her mother was predominately absent for most of her childhood. Her early years were secure and infused with strict Pentecostal morals (Spoto, 1993, p. 22). Norma Jeane felt unwanted when her mother left her and an encounter with her foster mother strengthened this feeling of rejection. She once referred to Ida as her "mother" and was quickly rebuffed. Ida asked Norma Jeane to not call her anything other than "Aunt Ida" because she was absolutely not her mother (Spoto, 1993, p. 20).

After returning to her mother's care, she started living with her mother's good friend, Grace McKee. Grace pushed her unfulfilled dreams of stardom onto little Norma Jeane (Spoto, 1993, p.39) and primed the little girl for a life in the spotlight. She would gather the attention of a room and have Norma Jeane show off and perform. Grace was said to have "brainwashed" the little girl so all she knew was to become a star. That was what she was going to be, no exceptions (Spoto, 1993, p. 36). Norma Jeane was nearly sexually assaulted twice during her childhood. The first incident occurred after she returned to her mother's custody and then stayed with Grace. When she was eleven years old, Grace's husband tried to force himself on her but she managed to escape (Spoto, 1993, p. 49). Life with her mother and Grace was morally contradictory to her earlier upbringing and religious beliefs (Spoto, 1993, p. 29). The second assault occurred less than a year after the first. Her cousin attempted to rape her. It is not recorded whether or not he was successful, as Norma Jeane's first husband, James Dougherty claimed she was a virgin when they married (Spoto, 1993, p. 55). These experiences caused Norma Jeane to dissociate sexual intercourse from affection (Spoto, 1993, p. 49). Norma Jeane experienced minor illness throughout her childhood, along with minor psychological distress. When she was ten, she went into fits of despair, sobbing uncontrollably "at the slightest provocation (Spoto, 1993, p. 47)." She was withdrawn and tended to stutter (leading to a nickname of "M-m-m"). She was also anxious and often had moderate colds and coughs. Norma Jeane spent her early years living in a fantasy world she created to escape her reality. She told others in the orphanage fantastic stories about having loving parents who were on a trip. She created fake postcards to corroborate her story (Spoto, 1993, p. 47). She also had herself convinced that Clark Gable was her father, though it was not a possibility (Spoto, 1993, p. 45; 54). When her mother was placed in a nursing home (at the age of 32), Norma Jeane went to live with Grace McKee (Spoto, 1993, p. 33). She was subsequently sent to live with different relatives of Grace's and even an orphanage for a few years. She married her first husband, James Dougherty on June 19, 1942, at age 16, so she would not have to return to the orphanage (Spoto, 1993, p. 73). During this marriage, she expressed distaste for the idea becoming a mother, as she had seen her own mother and grandmother essentially botch the job (Spoto, 1993, p. 81). Norma Jeane was unsuccessful as a housewife (Spoto, 1993, p. 381) and lacked respect for the sanctity of marriage (Spoto, 1993, p. 320). She had several affairs and a total of three failed marriages. Norma Jeane claimed that her second husband, Joe DiMaggio physically abused her, but this is believed to be fabricated (Spoto, 1993, p. 332). Her last husband was playwright Arthur Miller.

During this final marriage, Norma Jeane suffered from two miscarriages and an ectopic pregnancy (Spoto, 1993, p. 393).The former was believed to be a complication of her chronic endometriosis, a condition in which the uterine lining develops on external structures, resulting in excruciating cramping and excessive menstrual bleeding (Spoto, 1993, p. 60). She also had a bout of pancreatitis. After suffering from insomnia for nearly two years, she developed a dependence on sleeping aid and often took barbiturates and hypnotics (Spoto, 1993, p. 328-329). Her insomnia caused her to occasionally miss work. She experienced shifting moods and was reportedly depressed: "She felt lonely, isolated, abandoned, worthless, that she had nothing more to offer but this naked wounded self (Spoto, 1993, p. 434)." It is observations like these that led to the interpretation of her death as a suicide. Several facts must be accounted for, such as her communications with others just prior to overdose and the method of the fatal dosage, before a definition of suicide could be applied. Just prior to her death, Norma Jeane received a call from her ex-husband Joe DiMaggio. She had recently been interested in reconciliation, but DiMaggio had recently become engaged to another woman (whom Norma Jeane disliked). Just before the fatal dosage of chloral hydrate, a chemical used in tranquilizers, was administered, Joe DiMaggio had called Norma Jeane to tell her that he had broken off his engagement with the young woman (Spoto, 1993, p. 570). This gave Norma Jeane an extreme mood elevation, and thus, it is unlikely that she would take her life just after the possibility of reconciliation being affirmed. At the time of her death, it was determined that she was not physically dependent on any drugs, only a mild to moderate user after treatment (Spoto, 1993, p. 582). Norma Jeane was making plans for the future and thought she could put her past behind her and move on (Spoto, 1993, p. 583). The possibility of ingestion of the lethal barbiturate and injection were both ruled out by extensive investigation. The only possible method left was via enema. This was confirmed by the discovery of severe discoloration of Norma Jeane's sigmoid colon (Spoto, 1993, p. 585). This was found to be the method of overdose, but suicide utilizing this method is unlikely. In addition, Norma Jeane's nude body was discovered by an "unbalanced" woman named Eunice Murray. Murray said she just happened to wake and discovered Norma Jeane's door was uncharacteristically locked. Once police canvassed the scene, however, there was no sign that Murray had to force entry into the room to discover the body (Spoto, 1993, p. 582). Police did not consider any of these factors when they labeled her death an apparent suicide. In life, Norma Jeane showed a desperate need for attention and sympathy. She often took events that may elicit empathy from the lives of others and claimed them as her own experiences (Spoto, 1993, p. 44; 68). She would claim to know the real identity of her father (a fact unknown even to her mother) and pretended to call him in order to gain sympathy when he simply hung up on her (Spoto, 1993, p. 89-90). When she later attempted psychotherapy, she would often fabricate things she assumed the analyst wanted to hear when she did not have answers for his questions (Spoto, 1993, p. 386). Norma Jeane often made up detail to make memories more pleasant for her and cause others to find her more endearing (Spoto, 1993, p. 54). Despite her attempts to elicit admiration from others based on her personality and actions, she was convinced that her body was all she had to offer (Spoto, 1993, p. 64). She saw herself as an object for the pleasure of others (Spoto, 1993, p. 56). This feeling is one of the recurring themes in her life.

Norma Jeane's life was filled with such recurring themes. Her abandonment by her mother and subsequently Ida Bolender and Grace McKee caused her to have a certain distrust of women (Spoto, 1993, p. 43). Her abrupt change in environment and religions, absent parents, and variability in surnames led to an uncertainty of identity (Spoto, 1993, p. 323). She earned an important trait from her grandmother and mother: selecting inappropriate individuals with whom to form relationships. She may have been unconsciously repeating unhappiness in an attempt to correct the problem (Spoto, 1993, p. 47). She repetitively selected neglectful and unwittingly hurtful mates, perhaps in a bid to correct her previous rejection by reversal (Spoto, 1993, p. 87). It is a cycle she continually repeated throughout her lifetime. Norma Jeane used any means she could to draw attention to herself. She wore provocative clothing, strutted in front of the camera, and fabricated sob stories from her past to elicit comfort from others. Even more complicated than simple fabrication, she took elements from the lives of those around her and utilized them for the aforementioned purpose. She claimed abusive situations experienced by Grace's stepdaughter Eleanor Goddard (Spoto, 1993, p. 44) and tales of whippings and near-starvation from Grace's other stepdaughter Bebe Goddard. She used these to win press and public sympathy (Spoto, 1993, p. 68). Other times, she again claimed to call her father. In the biography, Donald Spoto explained that she did such things to remind others of her childhood loss, "of a frightful void in her life, a desertion that had left her forever wounded (Spoto, 1993, p. 90)." These themes and her actual experiences lend themselves to the possibility of diagnosis.

On Axis I, Norma Jeane has a prior history of 307.0 Mild Stuttering, as shown in reference to her childhood. She received a nickname of "M-m-m" as a result of her stuttering. She satisfied the requirement of one symptom from the list with her sound and syllable repetition (American Psychiatric Association, 2000, p. 63). In addition, Norma Jeane experienced a bout of 307.42 Primary Insomnia, considering her difficulty in falling asleep, difficulty maintaining rest, its impact on her work, and how it is unrelated to other disorders or medical conditions (American Psychiatric Association, 2000, p. 557). On Axis II, one must note Norma Jeane's need to be the center of attention and her sexually seductive and provocative behavior. These aspects of her personality indicate a 301.50 Histrionic Personality Disorder based on criteria in the DSM-IV (American Psychiatric Association, 2000, p. 657). Her frequent exaggerations and fabrications to draw attention must be noted. Axis III analysis reveals her chronic Endometriosis and multiple miscarriages. Analysis on Axis IV reveals disruption of family through divorce (multiple instances), unstable childhood with much relocation, parental absence, and history of sexual assault. Also on Axis IV, her family's deeply-rooted, unfounded belief that they were prone to an inherited "madness" must be considered. Conflict in formation and sustenance of relationships continued to be an issue, but did not disrupt normal functioning. Norma Jeane was competent in decision making, but resorted to substance abuse for relief from insomnia and depression. Her Global Assessment of Functioning rating was most likely 65 (at death).

Considering her axis two diagnosis of Histrionic Personality Disorder, there are personality theories that could shed light on the problems that contributed to her disorder. Carl Jung's theory of a complex is supported by Norma Jeane's initial disinterest in becoming a mother as a result of her previous experiences with her own mother and grandmother (Engler, 2009, p. 72-73). The concepts she associated with being a mother were not desirable. She had been exposed to fear of lost freedom and negative experiences of what it means to have a mother. Norma Jeane seemed to have trouble identifying her role in society and even more problems trying to understand it, giving her an incomplete persona (Engler, 2009, p. 74). Norma Jeane's dependence on others, according to Adler, may have something to do with her being the last born (despite her non-traditional family life). These individuals tend to feel like the "baby" of the family and therefore feel entitled to being cared for (Engler, 2009, p. 100). It is reasonable to consider the possibility of Norma Jeane grappling with a mistaken style of life (or life lie), considering the stringent expectations of her as a Hollywood star and her true existence (Engler, 2009, p. 102). Norma Jeane followed five of the ten neurotic trends proposed by Karen Horney. She had an exaggerated need for approval and affection, need for a dominant partner, exaggerated need for social recognition and/or prestige, need for personal admiration, and need for perfection and unassailability. Norma Jeane's primary mode of relating seemed to be moving away and emotionally detaching (Engler, 2009, p. 125). She expressed many "neurotic" behaviors. Considering the theory of basic needs by Erik Fromm, Norma Jeane grew up without several of the required needs for healthy development. She did not have relatedness (the connection to others and caring for others), rootedness (the feeling of belonging), sense of identity, or excitation and stimulation (as she simply did what she was told: to be a star). Fromm claimed that if we do not meet these basic needs, "we either die or become insane" (Engler, 2009, p. 137). This has proven to be true, but only when circumstances surrounding her death are ignored. These theories merely touch on Norma Jeane's childhood problems and subsequent adulthood complexes.

I selected Marilyn Monroe because her story has been reformed and retold so often that the circulating gossip minutely resembles the truth. I was inspired to find truth underneath the myth. Upon reading her biography, I became intensely skeptical that her death was truly a suicide. The likelihood of a young woman administering an enema to herself in order to commit suicide by overdose struck me as nearly impossible. It would have been much more practical and easier to take one of the bottles of sleep aids she always had around than to put administering a chloral hydrate enema. Her childhood seemed to be problematic enough to foster many possible disorders or at least slight mental disturbances. She lacked security and fulfillment of many essential, emotional needs. Her possible Histrionic Personality disorder is a best case scenario considering all. I can understand why one would look at her history and conclude that it must have been a suicide, but I find it a challenge to believe that she would have taken her own life just as she was beginning it again.

Works Cited
American Psychiatric Association. (2000). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders: DSM-IV-TR. Washington, DC: Author.
Engler, Barbara. (2009). Personality Theories. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.
Spoto, Donald. (2003). Marilyn Monroe: The Biography. New York: Harper Collins.[/size][/size]

[end of quote]
Be tolerant of others, but true to yourself. In supporting you, I try to offer common sense. PM me if you need to.
Review policies here: forum-rules.php
Sorry, I cannot delete posts.
orion13213
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:30 am
Local time: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


ADVERTISEMENT

Re: Marilyn Monroe

Postby TadLock » Sun May 13, 2012 9:07 pm

Thanks for the post, orion. MM....a true beauty....long before this "plasitc/injection" age. She was pretty, real, and had talent too. Didn't know it was 'hpd', just had heard a 'bpd' whim awhile ago, but it was never backed up by anything.

Orioin, strange question maybe: but "was" she hpd? Or was it that she had the traits only? You concluded:
"Her possible histrionic personality disorder".

Hey, you know what. Shrinks look back at the dead and call them pd's all the time. I just realized that....like Miss Boneparte (Napoleans wife). Many dead get straight out referred to as pd's (in their writings and if you talk to them and they bring them up).

Ever noticed that? Same with male serial killers or criminals. Long after they are dead, they are called cluster b's of some sort certainly more than just once :?:
"Misery Is A Stench Of The Human Mind-" Lady Gaga
TadLock
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:27 pm
Local time: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Marilyn Monroe

Postby orion13213 » Sun May 13, 2012 9:58 pm

Tadlock

Good point, Dx's require interviews of live people, so post-mortem ones cannot ever be the last word (and come to think of it, only the person who has been Dx'd should have the last word).

A wrinkle here though, is, while Dx's should benefit the living and never do harm, but if the subject is deceased, she can't be harmed, and there are young women out there who are possibly HPD and, desiring to become self-aware, who might want to hear the parallels between their lives and Monroe's, as a place to start...?

Interestingly enough, "Monroe had a long experience with psychoanalysis. She was in analysis with Margaret Herz Hohenberg, Anna Freud, Marianne Rie Kris, Ralph S. Greenson (who found Monroe dead), and Milton Wexler." [quoted from Wikipedia]. Wonder what those psychoanalysts could tell us, if it wasn't a breach of ethics?

I always thought the visible HPD elements were so strong in Monroe's life, and then I found this excellent work by this psych honors student, and so the correlation became even stronger.

BPD is close to HPD as we all know, and moreover it seems like HPD is a cyclical combination of NPD and BPD...recently I had this insight when Lodi Dodi in her "Off The Freight Train " thread said she felt like there were two modes, "n" and "h." What if the "n" mode is like NPD, while the "h" mode is really "b," or the BPD-like base, although milder than full BPD. I think of it as using the sharp edge of a little NPD to snap out of the BPD low-energy doldrums.

If you go to that HPD video thread I started, see the video of Monroe singing Happy Birthday to JFK, ...she's in "n " mode, while in "The Misfits" she's in "b" mode, drawing on her BPD basis to be introspective and empathic...?
Be tolerant of others, but true to yourself. In supporting you, I try to offer common sense. PM me if you need to.
Review policies here: forum-rules.php
Sorry, I cannot delete posts.
orion13213
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:30 am
Local time: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Marilyn Monroe

Postby Big C » Sun May 13, 2012 10:37 pm

orion8591 wrote:Tadlock

Good point, Dx's require interviews of live people, so post-mortem ones cannot ever be the last word (and come to think of it, only the person who has been Dx'd should have the last word).

A wrinkle here though, is, while Dx's should benefit the living and never do harm, but if the subject is deceased, she can't be harmed, and there are young women out there who are possibly HPD and, desiring to become self-aware, who might want to hear the parallels between their lives and Monroe's, as a place to start...?

Interestingly enough, "Monroe had a long experience with psychoanalysis. She was in analysis with Margaret Herz Hohenberg, Anna Freud, Marianne Rie Kris, Ralph S. Greenson (who found Monroe dead), and Milton Wexler." [quoted from Wikipedia]. Wonder what those psychoanalysts could tell us, if it wasn't a breach of ethics?

I always thought the visible HPD elements were so strong in Monroe's life, and then I found this excellent work by this psych honors student, and so the correlation became even stronger.

BPD is close to HPD as we all know, and moreover it seems like HPD is a cyclical combination of NPD and BPD...recently I had this insight when Lodi Dodi in her "Off The Freight Train " thread said she felt like there were two modes, "n" and "h." What if the "n" mode is like NPD, while the "h" mode is really "b," or the BPD-like base, although milder than full BPD. I think of it as using the sharp edge of a little NPD to snap out of the BPD low-energy doldrums.

If you go to that HPD video thread I started, see the video of Monroe singing Happy Birthday to JFK, ...she's in "n " mode, while in "The Misfits" she's in "b" mode, drawing on her BPD basis to be introspective and empathic...?



I too have always thought MM was a very public example of HPD. Of course, in all of this, by necessity their is some subjectivity in what one sees in another. For me, IMO, the Misfits is a classical picture of HPD.
"“If two people love each other, there can be no happy end to it”

Hemingway
Big C
Consumer 5
Consumer 5
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:09 am
Local time: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Marilyn Monroe

Postby TadLock » Sun May 13, 2012 11:03 pm

Big C wrote:
orion8591 wrote:Tadlock

Good point, Dx's require interviews of live people, so post-mortem ones cannot ever be the last word (and come to think of it, only the person who has been Dx'd should have the last word).

A wrinkle here though, is, while Dx's should benefit the living and never do harm, but if the subject is deceased, she can't be harmed, and there are young women out there who are possibly HPD and, desiring to become self-aware, who might want to hear the parallels between their lives and Monroe's, as a place to start...?



Orion, i'm so with what you posted. as for the, 'they needed to know the person to dx", I never dogmatically felt that way.

The shrinks don't need to meet the duck to dx it as a duck . All they need to do is see a semi good picture of a duck to say, "Yup, that was a duck". I think we have a good profile of MM, as did he shrinks who discussed her life, more of her personal life of course after her death.

There is A LOT known of the dead people (famous most cases some ways some how), so they can get a clear perspective of a duck, if they were one, imo.

orion8591 wrote:Wonder what those psychoanalysts could tell us,


That they met a duck :) .

orion8591 wrote:If you go to that HPD video thread I started, see the video of Monroe singing Happy Birthday to JFK, ...she's in "n " mode, while in "The Misfits" she's in "b" mode, drawing on her BPD basis to be introspective and empathic...?


Is that thread old? How do u even find old threads here?
"Misery Is A Stench Of The Human Mind-" Lady Gaga
TadLock
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:27 pm
Local time: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Marilyn Monroe

Postby Cyanide » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:14 pm

I think she is lovely and captivating to watch. Like her every move in front of the camera is manufactured by her so precisely, it's perfection of film acting.
I bet most HPDs are the same way in their lives. They probably command a lot of admiration and awe just being present.
Cyanide
Consumer 5
Consumer 5
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:58 am
Local time: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Marilyn Monroe

Postby yYyYy » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:29 pm

MM got plastic surgery. She sharpened her jaw bone, without anesthesia.

Great story orion,
ummm..... Even while reading it I kinda envied her childhood
I must be crazy
yYyYy
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 4968
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:42 pm
Local time: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (2)

Re: Marilyn Monroe

Postby Bridgette1918 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:33 pm

Very interesting reading but the basis of the whole article is from information in the Donald Spoto book...which is not a completely accurate source...
Also it was Joe DiMggio Jr who called on the evening MM died NOT her ex-husband Joe Dimaggio Sr...that does put a different spin on the impact that phone call would have...I don't mean to nitpick honestly...just look beyond Spoto's work...b
Bridgette1918
Consumer 0
Consumer 0
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:20 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Return to Histrionic Personality Disorder Forum




  • Related articles
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests