What is the truth about HPD? (May be triggering Non Thread)

Not long ago, a thread was posted which challenged a: false stereotyping of HPD's by nons as being prejusexually promiscuous, cheaters.. etc".. The stance of the poster was that since the DSM-IV criteria didn't specifically quote such behavior.. It must be mistaken and prejudiced to attribute infidelity, manipulation, etc. with HPD.

THAT thread garnered some heated responses from vulnerable HPD's... and THIS one may as well. It's not my primary intention. THIS thread, I'm hoping will simply show verifiable un-biased substantiation that some of the more negative aspects of HPD claimed by nons aren't groundless. As well as analysis which shows why such claims are so heatedly disputed. That said, I apologize in advance to those who see this as HPD bashing. The quotes I'm posting will be truncated for brevity, but I'll include the links so that anybody can read the source material in full.
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http://www.angelfire.com/biz/BPD/HPD.html

" More critically, the central role of sexuality in the regulation of self-esteem and its overt interpersonal expressions in seductiveness, erotization, and rivalry with members of the same sex should become criteria for the histrionic group."

"They use dramatics and demonstrativeness in order to bind people towards them; when they don't get their own way they believe that they are being treated unfairly and they try to coerce compliance or get even by throwing temper tantrums."
( **This is what happened to the other thread. )
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http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com/2006 ... r-hpd.html

They will resort to crying, coercion, temper tantrums, assaultive behavior and suicidal gestures to avoid rejection (Beck, 1990, p. 51).

Even though individuals with HPD will attempt to bind others to them, they are often dissatisfied with single attachments. They tend to be lacking in fidelity and loyalty; they are seductive, dramatic, and capricious in personal relationships (Millon & Davis, 1996, p. 357). Their interpersonal dependency is not expressed through faithfulness and commitment. They start relationships well but falter when depth and durability are needed. There is a paradox in HPD relationships of coercive dependency and infidelity.
** Summary: Dissatisfied without multiple attachments. Lacking in faithfullness and loyalty, but demand loyalty and faithfullness from others. **

On the surface, in HPD relationships, there is warmth, energy, and responsiveness. Covertly, this behavior is accompanied by a "secretly disrespectful agenda of forcing delivery of the desired nurturance and love. . .manipulative suicidal attempts are examples of such coercions" (Benjamin, 1993, p. 173). Individuals with HPD have a strong fear of being ignored; they long to be loved and taken care of by someone who is both powerful and able to be controlled through the use of charm and seductiveness. They become helpless and childlike when faced with potential rejection (McWilliams, 1992, p. 307).
**summary: HPD's are warm and caring on the surface, but have a secret agenda of disrespect and coerced expressions of nurturance and love.**

Individuals with HPD are fraudulent insofar as their inner emptiness is in contradiction to the impressions they seek to convey to others. They hide their true cognitive sterility and emotional poverty (Millon & Davis, 1996, p. 370). HPD cognition is global, diffuse, and impressionistic; these individuals appear incapable of sustained intellectual concentration; they are distractable and suggestible (Beck, 1990, p. 215). They avoid introspective thought. They are attentive to fleeting and superficial events but integrate their experience poorly with a cursory cognitive style. They lack genuine curiosity and have habits of superficiality and dilettantism. They avoid potentially disruptive ideas and urges by dissociating from thoughts, people, and activities that threaten their view of themselves or the world (Millon & Davis, 1996, p. 369).
**summary: Fraudulent expressions of emotion meant to conceal emotional poverty. Avoid disruptive and negative ideas by dissociation from things that threaten their facade**

HPD defenses include dissociative mechanisms. Individuals with HPD regularly alter and recompose themselves to create a socially attractive but changing facade. They engage in self-distracting activities to avoid reflecting on and integrating unpleasant thoughts and feelings (Kubacki & Smith, Retzlaff, ed., 1995, p. 168). Repression is also a HPD defense; frequent splitting off from conscious awareness of self results in an intrapsychic impoverishment; psychological growth is precluded. These individuals remain immature and childlike in their behavior. Through repression, individuals with HPD remain unaware that their thoughts and feelings are attached to their behavior. Accordingly, they claim innocence when their conduct results in interpersonal conflict (Kubacki & Smith, Retzlaff, ed., 1995, p. 171).
**Summary: Denial, avoidance, dissociation and repression of unacceptable truths are a common defense mechanism.**
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http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hi ... order.html


Individuals with HPD differ in the severity of the maladaptive defense mechanisms they use. Patients with more severe cases of HPD may utilize the defense mechanisms of repression, denial , and dissociation.

"Even though individuals with HPD will attempt to bind others to them, they are often dissatisfied with single attachments. They tend to be lacking in fidelity and loyalty; they are seductive, dramatic, and capricious in personal relationships (Millon & Davis, 1996, p. 357). Their interpersonal dependency is not expressed through faithfulness and commitment. They start relationships well but falter when depth and durability are needed. There is a paradox in HPD relationships of coercive dependency and infidelity.
** Summary: Dissatisfied without multiple attachments. Lacking in faithfullness and loyalty, but demand loyalty and faithfullness from others. **"

  This entire paragraph is so true in my case. I am not yet fully diagnosed but this describes me to a T!!!

It's only day 2 since my bf changed my number( without my knowledge) and I am only communicating with him.. But I feel like dying.. of boredom.. restlessness.. and attention. I don't even know if I will last. I'm already harboring fantasies of getting a secret celphone.

I felt empty waking up to a celphone with only a few messages.. all from him. He wants me to make him the center of my life. But I am used to being the center of many peoples lives. This sucks! I feel more alone. I dunno why it feels he's not enough. I want variety.. flatteries.. multiple interactions.. color.. drama and more fun in my life. 

But I want them all to be utterly faithful to me. I like to have my cake and eat it too. I should be the one and only! The rest shouldn't matter. I am unfair I know.. but I can't help feeling this way.

Oh well.. For now, i tell myself to try to be good and be contented with just one.. but I DONT trust myself.

PrettyCrazyMe333 wrote:"Even though individuals with HPD will attempt to bind others to them, they are often dissatisfied with single attachments. They tend to be lacking in fidelity and loyalty; they are seductive, dramatic, and capricious in personal relationships (Millon & Davis, 1996, p. 357). Their interpersonal dependency is not expressed through faithfulness and commitment. They start relationships well but falter when depth and durability are needed. There is a paradox in HPD relationships of coercive dependency and infidelity.
** Summary: Dissatisfied without multiple attachments. Lacking in faithfullness and loyalty, but demand loyalty and faithfullness from others. **"

  This entire paragraph is so true in my case. I am not yet fully diagnosed but this describes me to a T!!!

It's only day 2 since my bf changed my number( without my knowledge) and I am only communicating with him.. But I feel like dying.. of boredom.. restlessness.. and attention. I don't even know if I will last. I'm already harboring fantasies of getting a secret celphone.

I felt empty waking up to a celphone with only a few messages.. all from him. He wants me to make him the center of my life. But I am used to being the center of many peoples lives. This sucks! I feel more alone. I dunno why it feels he's not enough. I want variety.. flatteries.. multiple interactions.. color.. drama and more fun in my life. 

But I want them all to be utterly faithful to me. I like to have my cake and eat it too. I should be the one and only! The rest shouldn't matter. I am unfair I know.. but I can't help feeling this way.

Oh well.. For now, i tell myself to try to be good and be contented with just one.. but I DONT trust myself.

( I'm relieved you didn't take the ENTIRE post to be a blanket description of HPD)...
I can imagine how that silence must feel. I don't believe that one shouldn't have other people in their lives.. It's their roles and understanding that they have to be allowed to have others in their life that seems hard for HPD's to accept. Counseling's the obvious answer, but maybe this website's a good place to start with learning how to balance things? Many of us nons display some disorder ourselves, but many of us also can give perspective from our own understanding of the disorder... The healthier HPD's can lend some invaluable guidance from a firsthand perspective. Both sides can be of help, and can be a safe outlet when you're feeling alone.

p.s.--- Changing your number was an effective way of cutting off the 'fan club'.. but seems a little drastic. (Just my opinion. )

Ghost
I've noticed that those who object to the deeper characteristics often say "it doesn't say that infidelity (for ex.) is a characteristic in the DSM." But it's also obvious that DSM only offers the broadest of characteristics. Just like if you want to learn about Psychopathy, the DSM only opens the door with AsPD; one must move on to Hare and the Psychopathy Checklist and/or Lykken. In it's broad strokes DSM also includes HPD characteristics that seems vaguely contradictory, like "provocative behavior" and "suggestibility."
All I can say is that the above behaviors you have dug up in Millon and the others are true, in addition to the broad classic DSM ones, like being the "center of attention" and "seductiveness." I have seen it first hand: narcissisim reaching NPD or even AsPD- like levels from the probable HPD I currently know, along with all the manipulation and resentment and even sadistic behavior when things got really nasty. But I have also seen depression and increased empathy from her during more vulnerable times of relationship failure. That seemed to be a window where genuine introspection and a beginning self-awareness was/is beginning to take hold. I was reminded of this when one recent HPD poster said she was BPD-like when she was down (perhaps with more empathy?) but as she became more HPD she got less empathic - later describing how she had empathy for her alpha guy, but none for the others in the fan club.

The HPD I know is also getting older, perhaps beginning to 'age out' - have you ever heard how AsPD's age out and get more mellow in their 40's? Maybe she is starting to mellow out in her third decade of life.

The important question is what is the truth about all HPD's? If there is more variation within the category than outside of it, then it is a classic psychological 'junk box' : a collection of people with unrelated disorders!

What it seems like to me now is that HPD seems to have a bi-modal distribution when it comes to a empathy / dependence, and like all PD's I think the condition also continuously varies, like height. From the majority of popular and professional information about HPD one would guess that most HPD's are clustered within the "low empathy/less dependent" peak, while a somewhat smaller group is clustered within the "more empathy/more dependent" peak, with smaller numbers of intermediate individuals connecting the two peaks. What they all have in common is certain broad DSM characteristics like "seductiveness" and needing to be the "center of attention." Seemingly vaguely contradictory DSM features like "provocativeness" or "suggestibility" probably are features of the two different modal distributions, i.e., "provocativeness" being more a characteristic of the "less empathy/less dependent" population, while "suggestibility" is a feature of the "more empathy/more dependent" population.

But one caution: maybe more antisocial HPD's are reported than the more dependent ones? For example, the majority of HPD forum posts by Nons are about some kind of objectionable antisocial behavior by what seem like Vivacious, Tempestuous, or Disingenuous HPD subtypes; there isn't a lot of feedback about the Infantile or Appeasing HPD subtypes - maybe they are less common, or just less harmful, and therfore less of a grievance.

One practical question is how to openly discuss the objectionable antisocial behavior we Nons have experienced without discouraging any type of HPD's who might be exploring their first steps towards healing. I guess the only way is to keep emphasizing that there is a big difference between describing what is or what was and what should be ...I don't know of any Nons who want to block as many HPD's as the forum can hold. One way to sensitively do this is with the header advisory, as you did.
Thanks to Wisdom for showing us the way on that one...btw where you been lately, Wis?

Ghost5of7 wrote:" I'm relieved you didn't take the ENTIRE post to be a blanket description of HPD)...
I can imagine how that silence must feel. I don't believe that one shouldn't have other people in their lives.. It's their roles and understanding that they have to be allowed to have others in their life that seems hard for HPD's to accept. Counseling's the obvious answer, but maybe this website's a good place to start with learning how to balance things? Many of us nons display some disorder ourselves, but many of us also can give perspective from our own understanding of the disorder... The healthier HPD's can lend some invaluable guidance from a firsthand perspective. Both sides can be of help, and can be a safe outlet when you're feeling alone." Quote


Orion wrote "One practical question is how to openly discuss the objectionable antisocial behavior we Nons have experienced without discouraging any type of HPD's who might be exploring their first steps towards healing. I guess the only way is to keep emphasizing that there is a big difference between describing what is or what was and what should be ...I don't know of any Nons who want to block as many HPD's as the forum can hold. One way to sensitively do this is with the header advisory, as you did." Quote

I can see the board moving forward in a healthier manner, and all members here showing a greater respect for each other. This will help all, nons and HPDs to find support in a safe environment. I have seen great spurts of growth from the nons here as they move towards healing, and it is very moving. I hope that more HPDs will continue to post on here. I can see a real sense of community developing here, with great contributions from both sides, and you have all had your input into creating it.

I don't want to detract from this informative post, and look forward to hearing more.

orion8591 wrote:Ghost
I've noticed that those who object to the deeper characteristics often say "it doesn't say that infidelity (for ex.) is a characteristic in the DSM." But it's also obvious that DSM only offers the broadest of characteristics. Just like if you want to learn about Psychopathy, the DSM only opens the door with AsPD; one must move on to Hare and the Psychopathy Checklist and/or Lykken. In it's broad strokes DSM also includes HPD characteristics that seems vaguely contradictory, like "provocative behavior" and "suggestibility."
All I can say is that the above behaviors you have dug up in Millon and the others are true, in addition to the broad classic DSM ones, like being the "center of attention" and "seductiveness." I have seen it first hand: narcissisim reaching NPD or even AsPD- like levels from the probable HPD I currently know, along with all the manipulation and resentment and even sadistic behavior when things got really nasty. But I have also seen depression and increased empathy from her during more vulnerable times of relationship failure. That seemed to be a window where genuine introspection and a beginning self-awareness was/is beginning to take hold. I was reminded of this when one recent HPD poster said she was BPD-like when she was down (perhaps with more empathy?) but as she became more HPD she got less empathic - later describing how she had empathy for her alpha guy, but none for the others in the fan club.

The HPD I know is also getting older, perhaps beginning to 'age out' - have you ever heard how AsPD's age out and get more mellow in their 40's? Maybe she is starting to mellow out in her third decade of life.

The important question is what is the truth about all HPD's? If there is more variation within the category than outside of it, then it is a classic psychological 'junk box' : a collection of people with unrelated disorders!

What it seems like to me now is that HPD seems to have a bi-modal distribution when it comes to a empathy / dependence, and like all PD's I think the condition also continuously varies, like height. From the majority of popular and professional information about HPD one would guess that most HPD's are clustered within the "low empathy/less dependent" peak, while a somewhat smaller group is clustered within the "more empathy/more dependent" peak, with smaller numbers of intermediate individuals connecting the two peaks. What they all have in common is certain broad DSM characteristics like "seductiveness" and needing to be the "center of attention." Seemingly vaguely contradictory DSM features like "provocativeness" or "suggestibility" probably are features of the two different modal distributions, i.e., "provocativeness" being more a characteristic of the "less empathy/less dependent" population, while "suggestibility" is a feature of the "more empathy/more dependent" population.

But one caution: maybe more antisocial HPD's are reported than the more dependent ones? For example, the majority of HPD forum posts by Nons are about some kind of objectionable antisocial behavior by what seem like Vivacious, Tempestuous, or Disingenuous HPD subtypes; there isn't a lot of feedback about the Infantile or Appeasing HPD subtypes - maybe they are less common, or just less harmful, and therfore less of a grievance.

One practical question is how to openly discuss the objectionable antisocial behavior we Nons have experienced without discouraging any type of HPD's who might be exploring their first steps towards healing. I guess the only way is to keep emphasizing that there is a big difference between describing what is or what was and what should be ...I don't know of any Nons who want to block as many HPD's as the forum can hold. One way to sensitively do this is with the header advisory, as you did.
Thanks to Wisdom for showing us the way on that one...btw where you been lately, Wis?

In reality, I'm in 100% agreement with you.. The motivation behind this post is to show a "deeper understanding" of HPD... Something which this forum has been shifting away from. Like the trait of infidelity you pointed out... The fact that it's NOT a primary diagnostic point has been pointed at and used as a "club" to bash and stifle discussion about it... The stand being that "associating sexual misconduct with HPD is false because it's not in the DSM... and so talking about it is discrimination against HPD"..

However, infidelity/sexual misconduct is just one example. I'll choose from among the content of the material to illustrate.

" They avoid introspective thought. They avoid potentially disruptive ideas and urges by dissociating from thoughts, people, and activities that threaten their view of themselves or the world. . They engage in self-distracting activities to avoid reflecting on and integrating unpleasant thoughts and feelings. On the surface, in HPD relationships, there is warmth, energy, and responsiveness. Covertly, this behavior is accompanied by a "secretly disrespectful agenda of forcing delivery of the desired nurturance and love. . .manipulative suicidal attempts are examples of such coercions.

They will resort to crying, coercion, temper tantrums, assaultive behavior and suicidal gestures to avoid rejection

(Criticism can be seen as a form of rejection)... Read that small sample and apply it to a theoretical HPD saying: "I'm not a horrible person, and I"ve never been promiscuous, hurtful, or non-empathic!!! You're all just a bunch of bitter NON's and must be mistakenly attributing other disorders as HPD! Go to hell! Go to hell Go to hell!"

Now, keep the facts I"ve dug up here in mind in regards to these points....

Throwing a tantrum gets results in shutting down a thread. And in life many HPD's throw tantrums to shut down a real but unacceptable discussion.
***This is an example of:

They will resort to crying, coercion, temper tantrums, assaultive behavior and suicidal gestures to avoid rejection

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Pelting moderators with messages about how upsetting it is to be mis-characterized and making threats of self harm... no return.. etc. can be VERY effective when that moderator has the same disorder.. (which includes "is easily influenced" by the way)
*****These are examples of:

They avoid introspective thought. They avoid potentially disruptive ideas and urges by dissociating from thoughts, people, and activities that threaten their view of themselves or the world

AND

They will resort to crying, coercion, temper tantrums, assaultive behavior and suicidal gestures to avoid rejection

Invalidating a NON's input by forcing them to the "relationship" forum is a VERY VERY clever way of discrediting their posts and avoiding the need to face up to what's being said. That and the pink disclaimer are examples of:

On the surface, in HPD relationships, there is warmth, energy, and responsiveness. Covertly, this behavior is accompanied by a "secretly disrespectful agenda of forcing delivery of the desired nurturance and love.

I guess the practical answer to the questions you raised Orion is for there to be a less prejudiced policy adopted. If one reads back far enough there are many cases where HPD bashers are corrected by other Nons.. and a GENUINELY false post is discredited. Histrionic Personality Disorder is characterized by defense mechanisms of repression, denial, and disassociation from facts unacceptable to a false self image. I think having the content policed by sufferers of that very same disorder is... with some exceptions.. Highly inappropriate. It's why I as a non.. never considered volunteering as a moderator.. and wouldn't accept if invited to be one.

masquerade wrote:Ghost5of7 wrote:" I'm relieved you didn't take the ENTIRE post to be a blanket description of HPD)...
I can imagine how that silence must feel. I don't believe that one shouldn't have other people in their lives.. It's their roles and understanding that they have to be allowed to have others in their life that seems hard for HPD's to accept. Counseling's the obvious answer, but maybe this website's a good place to start with learning how to balance things? Many of us nons display some disorder ourselves, but many of us also can give perspective from our own understanding of the disorder... The healthier HPD's can lend some invaluable guidance from a firsthand perspective. Both sides can be of help, and can be a safe outlet when you're feeling alone." Quote


Orion wrote "One practical question is how to openly discuss the objectionable antisocial behavior we Nons have experienced without discouraging any type of HPD's who might be exploring their first steps towards healing. I guess the only way is to keep emphasizing that there is a big difference between describing what is or what was and what should be ...I don't know of any Nons who want to block as many HPD's as the forum can hold. One way to sensitively do this is with the header advisory, as you did." Quote

I can see the board moving forward in a healthier manner, and all members here showing a greater respect for each other. This will help all, nons and HPDs to find support in a safe environment. I have seen great spurts of growth from the nons here as they move towards healing, and it is very moving. I hope that more HPDs will continue to post on here. I can see a real sense of community developing here, with great contributions from both sides, and you have all had your input into creating it.

I don't want to detract from this informative post, and look forward to hearing more.

Ya raise a good point in my mind that I've got to clarify... I don't point to the trend of censuring content and invalidating some posts to the 'relationship' forum as.. abusive.. rather it's counterproductive and using a valid point of respect to justify stifling some unpleasant facts.

ghost wrote: I don't point to the trend of censuring content and invalidating some posts to the 'relationship' forum as.. abusive..

You should have quit while you were ahead. Good luck.

OK

Hi Ghost
I think the litmus test for the 'constructive direction' is built into any given post: where people disagree (inevitable, we are all imprefect human beings), do they disagree agreeably? If a man or woman is an apparent active HPD, or a bitter Non, and they engage in the manipulative patterns you have described above, well, even if Masquerade or another mod doesn't call them on their B.S., won't it be self-evident? What I am saying is that dysfunctional behavior, like foolish behavior, is its own best, obvious and automatic censor.

Confronting an HPD and getting him or her to admit their behavior is manipulative or otherwise destructive might be be possible (not to mention appropriate) in therapy with a significant other and the therapist physically present, but given the limitations inherent in the cyberspace of Psych Forums (i.e., thousands of anonymous persons, all of whom have the equal ability to log on and type), all that is likely to happen here is a big long thread of successively more acrimonious attacks and counterattacks.

For the same reason Psych Forums can only do so much in terms of therapy; its strongest role seems to be informational, and inspirational. If we all use sensitivity and respect, we should be able to both warn others about the manipulative and antisocial nature of HPD, as well as welcome those who wish to turn away from or suppress it within themselves.

He or she who is not against us, is for us.

Respectfully,

-- Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:06 pm --

yyy wrote::(

Don't cry, yyy. We aren't complete without your voice.