Apology

I have seen "windows" that appear to contain genuine empathy and remorse but unfortunately they didnt last long; often all that was needed to sweep them away was a relatively mild stressor or a little dissociation, then the lies and antisocial behavior returned in a full and vengeful rxn formation .

If you keep one hand open don't forget to keep your guard up with the other.

My HPD friend would rarely apologize when caught in a lie, because I don't think she really felt all of her lies were wrong. as dt said, admitting she is lying and it's wrong is akin to admitting her false persona is wrong, or her very 'self' she has created to hide her real self is wrong. what would happen then would be she would blameshift, claim ignorance, or simply avoid the topic all together.

She would offer some apologies for things other than lying, however, such as flaking (being a couple hours late or 'forgetting' we were supposed to hang out); and she did apologize profusely to her ex after all the name calling and raging that she did. I think she knew she was in the wrong during those times, but as others have said, that doesn't mean she feels genuine remorse or that she would never do the same thing again. HPD's aren't usually dumb, she was smart enough to understand societal morals and what others consider wrong - therefore, she'd 'apologize' to save face. likewise, she understood that cheating was wrong and spoke against it all the time, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't cheat on a partner without a second thought. in her mind, it was wrong for people to cheat on her; or for 'other people' to cheat; but it wasn't wrong for her to cheat. she had many justifications in her mind on why she was allowed to cheat, most of them centering around 'my partner isn't right for me and I just realized that now'. (more like, her partner is no longer showering her with attention because real life distractions got in the way.)

ghost5of7 wrote:...Playing into the apology ploy is a no-win all around. Being gracious will only enable her, and NOT being gracious will enable her to think: "He's a crude a--hole! Maybe I'm not so crazy after all..".. or some similar mental masturbation.

ghost, I accepted the apology graciously in part for the very reason you wrote here. In part because it's how I'd want to be treated if the situation was reversed. In part, because of some 'moral' calling I guess.

I believe that one reason why we people choose the defensive approach to dealing with conflict is that we often learn there is no reward for the alternatives (e.g., an honest, self-reflective, admission). Yes of course there is a possibility that someone could mis-use a gracious response for manipulative reasons (like 'hey, this works, I'll play it like that') but in general people are defensive because they've learned there is an immediate, tangible, pay-off (even though there is often a long term cost that is less tangible or may never come). Possibly some good will come of it.

admitting she is lying and it's wrong is akin to admitting her false persona is wrong, or her very 'self' she has created to hide her real self is wrong. what would happen then would be she would blameshift, claim ignorance, or simply avoid the topic all together.

I had done bad stuff in my life that I was ashamed of... And lied to cover it up. I could never admit to it... Never. It wasn't that I wanted to lie... It wasn't that I didn't want to admit the bad stuff I had done. It was that I never wanted to admit to why I did the bad stuff. The mega-low self-esteem... The creation of an alter ego to cover up an insecure shell.

So, it was the lies that covered up the bad stuff which covered up how Gawd awful I truly felt about myself at the time. It's all about not wanting to admit to others, nor yourself, that you truly feel that bad... You always psych yourself up to believe that you are perennially happy.

cacster -

The reality is that in our culture people generally prefer the company of others who appear confident, happy. Maybe all cultures, who knows. Anyway, for me, being more the introverted type, it matters less if others immediately are interested in me. In a way I like my introversion so I can filter who is really interested in the "whole" me versus just a happy facade (and it would be a facade if I appeared happy all the time). I guess for someone like the EX, for who others approval matters a LOT, she needs to facade for the same reason you wrote.

Xdude,

I hope to help with my small comment.

I would say it really depends on they type of HP that she really is. How severe or intense in her emotions that she portrays or portrayed to you in the past.

I think an HP CAN be sincere in apologizing, and really and truly feeling remorse. She might really be sorry for what she did to you, but she also might be using it to ease her conscience more so than mending what she did to hurt you.

There is a difference when it comes to apologies. I, too, hate it when someone says we are only sorry we got "caught". That isn't true. I hate to hurt people. I always have. So that really does make me feel bad for things i did in the past to hurt people because dispite my efforts to NOT hurt them, I did anyway. And it wasn't always a conscience AT THE TIME of what I was doing, but after the fact it became CRYSTAL CLEAR of what I did. And I would think, WHY didn't I stop at X, Y, or Z before 1, 2, or 3 occurred?? It was like I had no idea what I was doing in the moment other than being wrapped up in the FEELING GOOD of the moment.

Some HPs will apologize to RE-GAIN that manipulation hold they have on you. It COULD BE all a farse and nothing that you should take seriously.

NO ONE, not even YOU, can truly know what is sincere about your ex HP and what is in her mind. NO ONE. And it can't just be a blanket statement of ALL HPS are full of it, and ALL HPS are sincere.

EVERY HP is different.

My advice to you is to accept her apology as you already did, forgive her, and tell her to have a nice life and you wish her well. Don't let her spool you back into her web because she may unconsiously get wrapped back up into having your forgiveness and go back to the same things that hurt you in the first place because NOW you would be in FRIEND position and she would be confessing every escapade she has to you and I think that would hurt you more.

Forgiveness is for YOU, not HER. You've done that, and should wish her well and move on back to NC.

Hope this helps.
Scarlett

Scarlett -

Thank you for replying. I'm not a black and white thinker (or rather I should say I have actively tried not to be for many years, yet still do find myself having some black and white feelings at times, so that remains an on-going process), and I agree that it would be a mistake to think in terms of a 'one size fits all' explanation of what she is feeling. As you wrote, it is impossible to know more than what I'm told/observe, and beyond that I have to trust my intuition.

Also yes, regarding your FRIENDS point. We've had that discussion already. Could we just be friends? Though she wasn't saying let's be friends so much as exploring, is that possible versus nothing. Easy to answer. I can't/won't be a FRIEND if a FRIEND means someone I (or she) comfortably talks with our romantic/sexual relationships about. There are plenty of other people on the planet who can fulfill that role, I don't need to be one of them

By the way, again Scarlett, it's really a cool thing that you have made so many changes, did the hardest thing there is for any of us to do really! To point our finger back at ourselves, and really explore what's going on with us, versus others in a relationship. Ironically, I'm still avoiding doing that to some degree as much as I should be, as evidenced by this entire thread which is about 'what is she thinking?' Slap myself

Not at all Xdude.

I don't think you are truly avoiding by just getting a second opinion of what you probably already know in your head.

You once truly cared for this woman before you knew she was flawed or at least there was a name for proably what she is. There is nothing wrong with a little reassurance.

She could just be in a low spot right now with less in her fan base and going back through her mental roladex to drudge up anyone from her past to give her that "FIX" until someone new comes along. She could really be reflecting on her life and wanting to make changes and really feels sorry.

but as my Pen name on here is Scarlett O'Hara when she cries over the death of her second husband and Rhett laughs at her and tells her she would have done no different if she could do it over, that can sometimes be what we will never know about another person because they can't know it about themselves.

I often wonder if given the knowledge I have now, and I could go back to high school before it was bad, would I have proceeded differetnly? Would I have told the guys just to go on because I don't want to hurt them BEFORE they got attached to me, or would I have been caught up in the moment still letting them love me knowing I didn't love them and hurt them anyways??

Sad things is we can't know because we can't go back and undo or redo anything.

I think you are at a healthy place Xdude. You KNOW you can't be in the friend role and listen to her about new loves. A true friends listenens to their friends about new loves. So when reality is set in you know you and she cannot be true friends so it's best to not be a friend at all. She might not understand that and do some attention seeking things to lash out against you so just be prepared.

If for some reason at this moment in my life if, Heaven forbid, I was to become single, I would not want to ever look up old "loves" or flames nor even let them know I was single for the first fact that I hurt them and that would be a bad memory of me for them, and secondly for fear if they were single, they might want to start something up again, and me telling them I am sorry might lead them to think that I was interested. So knowing what I know now about HP, I probably would not look to make a mends with any of my past relationships and would hope they have moved on and don't even think of me now.

But your relationship isn't decades old of ending so that's a little bit of a fresh wound that if you rip that scab off and become her friend again, you are taking the chance of getting sucked back in and your heart broken again.

I wish you well in whatever you decide.

Scarlettt

Scarlett -

I like to believe that everyone can change, grow. Perhaps there are exceptions, people so rigid in their thinking that they cannot grow at all, but it's a hopeful thought that most of us can change under the right circumstances.

However I also believe that we people can only change so fast. Those moments of regret, the epiphanies, the mental paradigm shifts are catalysts for change, but the actual life-long change in how we really feel/react can take a long time to really take hold.

You are absolutely right, it's impossible to rewind/undo the past. What we know now we didn't know then so what-if's are only so useful to explore. Only in the future can we change but we're all haunted by our past to various degrees.

And yes, it is rather nice to have some confirmation that even those dealing with HPD can have moments of insight that go beyond the every day coping. Plus to be fair to her, she had given up most of the time spent with the fan club to avoid conflict between us, though did so begrudgingly which left me feeling unsatisfied that the past would not be repeated in the future. Her latest apology addresses that she is now aware they (the fan club) should have never come between us, but why they did, why she needed it. Honestly she has made changes for us, just those changes have been painfully difficult at times - times I felt that my point of view should have been easier to understand without having to fight so hard to be heard, or left to feel that my feelings were invalid.

Anyway as you've proven, it is possible to change, though it can take a long time and may remain a work in progress for the rest of your life. Still, that brings us all some hope Sadly for me, my EX may well have had some insights, but likely long term change could take years (it would be easier for me though if she had been entirely rigid )