HPD and being thoughtful?

by **okherewego212** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:09 pm

AGAIN, I think you have to decide first, on how you feel about your relationship with her and make a decision what you want to do, not her. This is about you, not her. The other day, you decided to start a new relationship???

Anyway..if you want to know more, than I suggest you read the threads here and get some books on it. Educate yourself a bit.

No one here can tell you what to do or whether your GF is HPD or not.

I realize you are going in circles, but that's what happens when tough decisions have to be made. No matter what you do IT IS UP TO HER TO CHANGE, YOU CAN"T MAKE HER CHANGE whether she is HPD or not. So here we are full circle.

All the best in your decision...OK

Carlking wrote:Are they thoughtful or do they do it just for the attention even if i'm the only one they are doing it for?

Will someone with HPD or some other form of this be thoughtful when she is in the love phase. Like will she use her own money to take you out , if your broke? Buy you birthday gift ? exc.. Or are they doing it to get attention for themselves? Do they do stuff like if they think there mom has a prescribtion drug prob try to seek help for them and calls people all over the place? I’m just having a hard time trying to describe who I’m dealing with. She shows the signs of HPD. She will try to be the life of the party. Gets loud when everyone else is talking.. talk about herself and what she been through. She has that trait where she will be very flirty with anyone, even someone very unattracted but then shoot them down when they ask for a phone number. She would try to be sneaky and act like she wasn’t doing that when she is with me, and just say she can’t help she is pretty.. She is cute no doubt but I’ve dated better looking women and I never had that trouble. I told her it’s a respect thing and she don’t get it. She has her little support group that she don’t like me talking to alone, she has already made up lies about me that I was not aware of until we got back together. She don’t really think of the consiquesos of her actions.. she has ran around on her ex a few times in 15 years but he kept taking her back. She knows what she is doing and even called me up the day she went out of town and told me she that she knows I’ll be mad but she is going to spend time with her family. Well she went someplace, somewhere and I still don’t’ know what she did but I know she wasn’t with her family. This is right after the night she stayed out and got drunk and didn’t come home. So I thought I would just tell her if she didn’t come home that night then it was over. .So its over now but I do miss her, I thought we can be friends but idk if she has some mild form of HPD or is just a self centered brat (she is 35) that has never had to deal with the consequests of her actions. She will never appolige unless its something like “im sorry I haven’t called you , been busy” if its something that will call her shame like talking or spreading rumors about me then she will act like she didn’t do it or avoid the conversation. It’s almost like if it is really manipulating then the more she wants to avoid it. How would you describe this person.. keep in mind the acting out, always have a crisis going on (which sometimes she does due to her crazy mom) , the theater like emotions and people have called her fake before. Girls don’t like her, she has been buddies with a girl that listen to how bad her ex has treated her and cried and the girl felt sorry for her then when that girls dad died needed she wasn’t there for support herself. Her mom and sister know how she is and seem to overlook her behavior because they don’t want to deal with the crying and everything. She really does have a heart I believe, she will see something cute a kid does and bring it to my attention and say isn’t he the cutest thing. I don’t know, I’m just so confused because she shows strong signs or HPD but then if I complain about being hungry, she will bring me food and stuff.. see she has her sweet ways but then she has really strange self destructing HPD acting ways. Ugh.. I guess when we have a chance to talk , I’ll set her down and try to explain why I feel like she has a mild form of this , I don’t think she is aware of it. When I told her that people think she is fake before it seems to of gotten to her.. she brought it up a week later and told me when I said that about her it really hurt her feelings. She was molested by her uncle when she was young, her mom told her sister, and her sister killed herself. Her son was killed in a accident when he was 8, she has another son that she seems to take good care of. I would like to hear if anyone has a theory on the type of personality I am describing? Or if anyone can tell me if there HPD was thoughtful to a point but never really admitted wrong ? some of the things i've heard on here about HPD almost sound like they are evil manipulating. ONe thing i'm sure of if she has this she isn't aware of it and if she does she isn't a slut. No way could she have plenty of men around, because i lived with her for a year, i never seen any guys texting, facebook messages or strange calls. she wouldn't hide her phone and stayed with me every night.

Carl,

There is usually a nice side that people with pd's possess. Think of Dr. Jekel and Mr. Hyde.

Their nice side, IMO, is what keeps you with them. It also obscures your vision to their evil side. You cannot see their darkness the way you ought, because their good side is always shining light on it. Just when you're sure she is a pd, or when you're sure you want to leave her, W.h.a.m.

You get hit with a gift (many shrinks use the slang "lovebombing"), they cook you a nice meal, they offer you a favor...anything like that. Listen, it is this side of them that is perhaps more destructive than the dark side of them, because it is mainly why we remain in abusive relationships with them for years.

Ever heard of a woman who stayed with a man who hit her for like 20 years and ask yourself, "what took her so long to leave him?". Well, nine times out of ten it was that "nice side" of him. He didn't beat her 24/7; otherwise, she most likely surely would have left him long before that.

This confusing you are experiencing keeps you off balance. It kept me off balance. It keeps everyone off balance. It is part of the wizard behind the curtain. On the one hand, they project one reality, whilst on the other hand, an entirely different reality is projected. For example I have recently found out that my ex is breaking A LOT of the rules with her parental visitation rights. And I actually was beginning to wonder if she was truly changing. Hell I even felt guilty for thinking she never would change.

My opinion Carl...she won't change. And that one nice side of her is only the snare that keeps you in an emotional abusive relationship.

How long were you guys apart? Didn't you say somewhere you broke up and then got back together? How long have you been with her?

Ironic how you said this Carl:

but never really admitted wrong ?

It is a topic that comes concerning cluster b's, as to whether or not they apologize. Now, what I mean isn't, "I'm sorry" or, "I'm sorry about that".

But what I mean is, "I'm sorry for **fill in the blank with what they actually did so they can take responsibility for it". They seldom apologize like that...they way a person should apologize. OR, they will apologize in a way where others are blamed for their actions.

So,

"I'm sorry for being part of your bad day". (blame is shifted to "your bad day").

"I'm sorry for doing this but when I was young...." (blame is shifted to an event in their youth)

"I'm sorry that you're jealous" (blame is shifted to YOU for being jealous...you have a jealous problem. It doesn't matter she was texting behind your back frequently).

Funny style apologies like that are not authentic apologies.

Anyway, one thing I can say Carl...whoever or whatever this chick is...is not to let Dr. Jeckel prevent you from seeing Mr. Hyde.

I also will PM you links to a few experts who deal with women who have cluster b pd's. You can schedule reasonable consultations with them, or you can with no cost browse their excellent articles to see if their descriptions of BPD/HPD/NPD fit.

by **ghost5of7** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:03 am

One of the most difficult things about this disorder is that it's SO hard to diagnose. The traits in certain degrees are present among MANY people... And those with the disorder are also of varying degrees of severity.. and there's subtypes. (ie: disengenuous.) It's when the traits become a persistent and defining characteristic of their lives that it becomes a "disorder".(which usually begins in early adulthood) . It sounds like she qualifies.
Thoughtfullness isn't a disqualifier from the disorder. Most are considered "highly functional" and are described as "people pleasers". What you described sounds like that type of behavior. One of the other describers is a lack of empathy.. Being emotionally unavailable in times of need is how this is usually expressed. THAT'S the acid test where the difference shows.

by **Carlking** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:53 am

How long were you guys apart? Didn't you say somewhere you broke up and then got back together? How long have you been with her?

She had an uncle that molested her when she was around 10 years old. When it came out her Aunt killed herself.

She was married young around (18) for about 15 years (she is in her mid 30's now),before she got married she had a child . The guy she married raised him until the son died in a hunting accident. That was about 8 years ago. She has another son that is 5 now. they have broken up 2 times throughout there marriage..

about 2 years ago she left her husband and filed for divorce. a few months later she moved in with me for about eight months.. one night she said she was going to her moms and i found out she was at her ex house all night,. I kicked her out and we been talking ever sense. In november he called me and said to stay away from her that she was scared of me that i was harrassing her. That was a lie and i got so mad i printed out her love letters and stuck them in his mailbox. She moved back out of his house a few months ago.. now we been seeing each other but she is at her moms now. Last week she just took off and stay gone two days.. so here i am now wondering what the heck happen.. we were getting along good. what troubles me is the lie about harrassing/stalking her,.. that was crazy but it was to get attention.She said her ex hit her too, but she will only tell the story one time, its not like she goes around trying to smear someones name. Her past can have something to do with that.. but i haven't even really caught her in many lies or had to worry about guys calling or texting her. I guess all i can do is ask her if she wants to go talk to some one and then get a diagnosis. the theatrical stuff is real but its cute. lying not so much of unless its something she knows i would get pissed about like staying out all night and drinking, i mean she just don't make up wild stories. One other things she does is stay busy.. she will be cleaning house or moving around..hardly can get her to watch a movie..she said she has ocd or something.. which is ok.. it keeps the house clean. sex is great.. I just have to see how it goes i guess, hopefully i will know more after we have our talk. I think we can be friends/ if she has this HPD disorder then i might try to slide out of her life ..at lease i got her to a doctor . She can be a good woman and fun to be with.. but i can't be with someone that i dont' trust. sense we she came back, she has been acting alot better in public as far as the flirty behavior.. she said she understands the respect thing better now, but its almost like she didn't know the meaning of it -- you understand it now? hmmm"

by **xdude** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:20 am

Carlking wrote:She can be a good woman and fun to be with.. but i can't be with someone that i dont' trust. sense we she came back, she has been acting alot better in public as far as the flirty behavior.. she said she understands the respect thing better now, but its almost like she didn't know the meaning of it -- you understand it now? hmmm"

From my limited experience with HPD, and from what I've read on this forum, it's a mental blind spot for those with HPD. From their point of view they just know that they enjoy (one could even say 'need') the attention and affirmation of their desirability from as many others as possible. This leaves them with a sense of self worth that is lacking in their core personality. They see/feel this almost exclusively from the point of view of how it makes them feel, not how it makes you feel.

Consider the following scenario:

Imagine being in a room with 100 other people. Only 1 of those people is your spouse, the other 99 are willing (even eager) to praise you, sexually flirt with you, boost your ego. Perhaps more so than is common (say because you are exceptionally wealthy, or attractive). Now you're in a position where you can make a choice. You can choose to deny the ego boosts from 99 in favor of the 1, or to try and juggle the 1's feelings and continue to flirt with the other 99. Consider also that in the back of your mind, if the relationship with the 1 doesn't work out (or if they abandon you), by maintaining the flirting with the other 99 should you be hurt, you'll be able to rapidly find another spouse, who knows, possibly a better spouse.

Before answering really try to see it from both points of view.

On the face of it, just playing the odds, flirting with the other 99 is much better odds. However there is a quandary and a cost. By continually flirting with the other 99, the 1 is hurt, withdraws, and so any fears one had of being abandoned becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Then again that assumes that you really want to be close to just 1. If on some level what you really want is quantity of relationships, if what you enjoy the most is the admiration of many, then choosing to keep the 99 interested would be in your own best interest.

Of course if you are clever you might be able to juggle the 1s feelings with the other 99. For a time anyway, you might be able to have both.

Ironically, if it was you who was out flirting with others in the same room, the person with HPD would rapidly feel devalued and hurt.

Essentially it comes down to wanting to have one's cake and eat it too. The person with HPD often wants both. Both the safety of a committed one on one relationship, and the benefits of flirting with many others as if they were single. They can often have both for a time, though eventually the committed partner ends up devalued so many times they give up. Even this really isn't so terrible for the person who has HPD as there are plenty of others who want them, and starting a new relationship can be exciting.

A lack of empathy means they have trouble seeing the dynamics from your point of view. A lack of core self-worth means that their hunger for validation/attention from others is a very strong need, and the admiration of 100 people vs 1 is no contest really.

by **thisislabor** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:27 am

Carlking wrote:Are they thoughtful or do they do it just for the attention even if i'm the only one they are doing it for?

Will someone with HPD or some other form of this be thoughtful when she is in the love phase. Like will she use her own money to take you out , if your broke? Buy you birthday gift ? exc.. Or are they doing it to get attention for themselves? Do they do stuff like if they think there mom has a prescribtion drug prob try to seek help for them and calls people all over the place? I’m just having a hard time trying to describe who I’m dealing with. She shows the signs of HPD. She will try to be the life of the party. Gets loud when everyone else is talking.. talk about herself and what she been through. She has that trait where she will be very flirty with anyone, even someone very unattracted but then shoot them down when they ask for a phone number. She would try to be sneaky and act like she wasn’t doing that when she is with me, and just say she can’t help she is pretty.. She is cute no doubt but I’ve dated better looking women and I never had that trouble. I told her it’s a respect thing and she don’t get it. She has her little support group that she don’t like me talking to alone, she has already made up lies about me that I was not aware of until we got back together. She don’t really think of the consiquesos of her actions.. she has ran around on her ex a few times in 15 years but he kept taking her back. She knows what she is doing and even called me up the day she went out of town and told me she that she knows I’ll be mad but she is going to spend time with her family. Well she went someplace, somewhere and I still don’t’ know what she did but I know she wasn’t with her family. This is right after the night she stayed out and got drunk and didn’t come home. So I thought I would just tell her if she didn’t come home that night then it was over. .So its over now but I do miss her, I thought we can be friends but idk if she has some mild form of HPD or is just a self centered brat (she is 35) that has never had to deal with the consequests of her actions. She will never appolige unless its something like “im sorry I haven’t called you , been busy” if its something that will call her shame like talking or spreading rumors about me then she will act like she didn’t do it or avoid the conversation. It’s almost like if it is really manipulating then the more she wants to avoid it. How would you describe this person.. keep in mind the acting out, always have a crisis going on (which sometimes she does due to her crazy mom) , the theater like emotions and people have called her fake before. Girls don’t like her, she has been buddies with a girl that listen to how bad her ex has treated her and cried and the girl felt sorry for her then when that girls dad died needed she wasn’t there for support herself. Her mom and sister know how she is and seem to overlook her behavior because they don’t want to deal with the crying and everything. She really does have a heart I believe, she will see something cute a kid does and bring it to my attention and say isn’t he the cutest thing. I don’t know, I’m just so confused because she shows strong signs or HPD but then if I complain about being hungry, she will bring me food and stuff.. see she has her sweet ways but then she has really strange self destructing HPD acting ways. Ugh.. I guess when we have a chance to talk , I’ll set her down and try to explain why I feel like she has a mild form of this , I don’t think she is aware of it. When I told her that people think she is fake before it seems to of gotten to her.. she brought it up a week later and told me when I said that about her it really hurt her feelings. She was molested by her uncle when she was young, her mom told her sister, and her sister killed herself. Her son was killed in a accident when he was 8, she has another son that she seems to take good care of. I would like to hear if anyone has a theory on the type of personality I am describing? Or if anyone can tell me if there HPD was thoughtful to a point but never really admitted wrong ? some of the things i've heard on here about HPD almost sound like they are evil manipulating. ONe thing i'm sure of if she has this she isn't aware of it and if she does she isn't a slut. No way could she have plenty of men around, because i lived with her for a year, i never seen any guys texting, facebook messages or strange calls. she wouldn't hide her phone and stayed with me every night.

oooh. good question, but: /toolongdidn'tread.jpg

the problem with histrionics, is that... it's we run on a different set of rules entirely. non's run on what, and we run on "why". I don't know if that makes sense, but if you explain "why" to a histrionic then they will change "what", but if you tell them "what" then they will never get "why" and then they will fight you on what the whole way. I think this also applies both ways, when working with a non, you have to remember the "rule change", they don't care why - only what. /srsabouthat.jpg

---> dude you are just having a relationship issue, that isn't an HPD issue. learn to deal with the opposite sex.

-- Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:52 am --

Carlking wrote:I kind of get it , i guess everyone has traits of a disorder . So if a disorder is a just a combination of so many traits then at what point can someone say they don't have empathy. To me i don't care if she seems fake. What i care about is if she don't feel empathy or guilt. I think that is what i would used to label someone with a disorder. (no empathy/guilt) . This is all so confusing !!! how many traits has to be present to loose empathy.. say they only have 4 traits, do they have little empathy so they do not have a disorder? I guess if i was a doctor, i would give a empathy test. is they have none then you would know if they can be treated or not. someone with no empathy, all you can do is make them aware and thats about it. Someone with a little empathy i would think you had something to work with

1. is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention
2. interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior
3. displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions
4. consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self
5.has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
6.shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
7. is suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances
8. considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are.

apparently, we do not have the ability to empathize. but, I know at least I, have the ability to reframe things and this often leads to SIGNIFICANTLY MORE information conveyed to me than anything you telling me ever would. I do not understand words for all intents purposes by contrast to emotional reframes, which I pick up quite frequently. I get these reframes ALL the time from people about how their emotional world must look/work like.

-- Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:01 pm --

Carlking wrote:I understand .. So people with HPD are condition to act based on what people expect because of their fear of being alone. She might say she is sorry and she understands why i got mad at her for cheating but she really don't. Its just what people expect and if she don't say she is sorry it will make people look at her poorly. This is really interesting to me anyway. So you learn empathy and guilt at a early age. Are some people just born without being able to learn it? instead of having a disorder , she can just be really just a spoiled child that never had to deal with consequences for her actions. if you take someone with HPD and start to teach them consequences they still will not learn ?

just so we are clear on this I DO NOT believe it HAS ANYTHING to do with responsibility, ok? Ok, moving on, it has to do with empathy. I CAN NOT understand why or how you feel or think like you do to what I have done, because I DO NOT have the ABILITY to empathize. - an HPD or narcissist DOES NOT even KNOW what they have done.

/doesthatmakesensenow.jpg?

it has nothing to do with being spoiled and not having had to deal with the consequences of their actions..........

--- of course then again maybe I am just trying to cover up for you saying that we are all spoiled bratt children who haven't had to learn the consequences of our spouses leaving us or lost careers or life changes because of our personality disorders that we didn't ask for. /notevenkiddingaboutthatistillmissher.jpg

by **xdude** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:32 pm

The most difficult triggering matter for NONs is trying to come to grips with a simple thing:

We don't understand how someone could know enough to hide their actions from others, knowing if they were caught the other person would be upset/hurt. That they can be hurt by similar actions. Our only conclusion is not that they don't understand what others feel. It's that they don't care about what others feel as compared with how they feel. The problem with that is, it is hard to feel sympathy for someone who shows none/little.

We can feel sympathy that there are reasons that lead to someone lacking empathy, but at the same time feel angry at their actions/choices. Welcome to the wonderful world of ambivalence

by **Cpt** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:38 pm

thisislabor wrote:---> dude you are just having a relationship issue, that isn't an HPD issue. learn to deal with the opposite sex.

Wrong. You do this to every new poster, Labor.

Regarding the OP, mine bought me a few nice gifts but most of the time acted completely thoughtless and flaked constantly. I dont think that her thinking a kid is cute is an example of thoughtfullness, mine was a middle school teacher(and a good one, besides the fact that she was flirting and probably sleeping with the dads, partying during the week, etc).

by **cacster** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:26 pm

We don't understand how someone could know enough to hide their actions from others, knowing if they were caught the other person would be upset/hurt. That they can be hurt by similar actions. Our only conclusion is not that they don't understand what others feel. It's that they don't care about what others feel as compared with how they feel. The problem with that is, it is hard to feel sympathy for someone who shows none/little.

XDude...

Are specifically referring to cheating?

Or some form of betrayal per se?

HPD and being thoughtful?

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