Why is it difficult to trust an HPD?

Caro's post on a new relationship after the HPD one, made me wonder a bit and I thought I will post a separate topic.

Its about trust.

I had noticed that I had an issue trusting my HPD X (I didn't know about HPD then) like I had never experienced before. In my earlier relationships with women, I was always pretty open to my partner having opposite-sex friends and I never mistrusted them. But I did have this problem with my HPD X, and many a times I questioned myself if I was being paranoid.

For example, since my X and I worked for the same company, I once didn't feel comfortable about her having coffee with a particular guy. I did point it out to her and obviously ended up being accused of being controlling. I did actually feel very bad about this, doubted myself, but kept feeling uncomfortable - and I didn't know the reason for my discomfort - after all having coffee with a opposite-sex friend is not cheating. Was it my own paranoia? Was it something about this particular guy and her choice for such guys? Was it her reaction? Was it her off-hand comments about guys? I never fully came to terms with my own discomfort. But I know it arose out of a general feeling of mistrust and somehow my feeling that I was not respected.

When I try to picture my earlier relationships, I remember my partners having opposite-sex friends with whom I was never uncomfortable. I never felt any mistrust in those situations.

So why did I mistrust my HPD X so much? This is a question I haven't really been able to answer fully to my own satisfaction. Any thoughts?

newtohpd wrote:Caro's post on a new relationship after the HPD one, made me wonder a bit and I thought I will post a separate topic.

Its about trust.

I had noticed that I had an issue trusting my HPD X (I didn't know about HPD then) like I had never experienced before. In my earlier relationships with women, I was always pretty open to my partner having opposite-sex friends and I never mistrusted them. But I did have this problem with my HPD X, and many a times I questioned myself if I was being paranoid.

For example, since my X and I worked for the same company, I once didn't feel comfortable about her having coffee with a particular guy. I did point it out to her and obviously ended up being accused of being controlling. I did actually feel very bad about this, doubted myself, but kept feeling uncomfortable - and I didn't know the reason for my discomfort - after all having coffee with a opposite-sex friend is not cheating. Was it my own paranoia? Was it something about this particular guy and her choice for such guys? Was it her reaction? Was it her off-hand comments about guys? I never fully came to terms with my own discomfort. But I know it arose out of a general feeling of mistrust and somehow my feeling that I was not respected.

When I try to picture my earlier relationships, I remember my partners having opposite-sex friends with whom I was never uncomfortable. I never felt any mistrust in those situations.

So why did I mistrust my HPD X so much? This is a question I haven't really been able to answer fully to my own satisfaction. Any thoughts?

Probably because her behavior was not worthy of trust as is common with most HPD's

newtohpd wrote:why did I mistrust my HPD X so much?

Well Newbie, I asked myself the same questions during my eight years with an HP and I've come to believe now, and it's probably similar to you, it's because you had never been exposed to such pervasive deceit and dysfunctions. I'm guessing your parents were healthy, well-adapted individuals with similar friends who had healthy, well-adapted and much loved children that were your friends so you had never been exposed too, or witnessed, the destructive behaviours of an HP until you became romantically involved with one. Much like mine did, yours recognized that you were a healthy and well-adapted man and you happened to be in the right place at the wrong time.

You distrusted your HPD so much because you had never seen such a clear violation of ethics, honesty and boundaries and subconsciously you knew something was wrong, but you couldn't have known what.

Until near the end of our relationship, I trusted my ex. I believed him when he said the first admitted affair was a one time thing, a mistake, that he loved me and it would never happen again. I didn't worry about late nights, "platonic" female friends, or unanswered phone calls. I truly never thought he'd cheat on me the first time, and after he did and we worked through it in counseling, I really thought we'd solved our issues and would grown and improve as a couple from there.

Unfortunately, what I did not trust was my own instincts regarding his treatment of me. From the beginning I knew on a deeper level that something was not right. He made fun of his own mother to her face; he was never satisfied with me, especially my physical appearance; he complained I didn't support him enough. Instead of listening to what my own senses told me, I believed him when he said my objections, and the resulting fights, were because of my deficient upbringing and basically everything was my fault.

Now, I'm struggling with rather the opposite problem. I have a wonderful boyfriend and my instincts on the way he's treating me are very positive. And yet, I struggle with issues of trust, and jealousy, with no real basis for any of that except my own insecurity. He responds to it all with love and patience and never accuses me of anything. What happens next, I don't know. One day at a time.

I'm with Caro here. The question is not so much "why is it difficult to trust an HPD" but "why is it so easy at first?" They're such persuasive liars that you believe them at first, far beyond the point that with a normal person you'd have caught a hint of their guilt or uncertainty. Their sheer forceful certainty while uttering pure impossible fabrication is what gets them by. When you finally have proof that they ARE lying to you, and likely have been since you met them, it destroys your confidence in your own ability to judge another's honesty.

And then they use their other weapon, guilt. People talk a lot about blameshifting on this forum, but that's only the tail end of what they do. The most important step, which lays the groundwork for blameshifting, is responsibility shifting. Ownership shifting. They consistently try to spin things so that we take ownership of every relationship dynamic. We have full responsibility for everything which goes on... once we've bought into that, then obviously when things go wrong, it's our fault. In normal relationships, a person owns their trustworthiness. Others' trust (or distrust) is a simple consequence of our trustworthiness. In a relationship with an HPD, she makes your trust of her into a separate entity which you own. Then, if you don't trust her, there's something wrong with YOU.

Newtohpd, all of those things you mention are part of why you never felt comfortable about her male friends. Your conscious mind was reassured by her verbal assurances, "we're just friends, he's such an awesome guy, he's like a gay friend, he's like a brother to me, he'd never do anything", but in between those reassurances her actual actions told a very different story: "this guy is interested in me, and if you don't try harder, he's going to take me away from you." If you ever felt comfortable with her around him, she'd start dropping hints. "Oh, that was awkward," she'd say, "He just told me that he can't stop fantasising about me." And then she'd meet him for lunch the next three days running. Her actions add in a clear "and that's a-OK with me!" She doesn't WANT you to be OK with her male friends, she wants you to feel insecure and jealous, because that proves that you care about her, right? And she doesn't WANT him to be just an honest, platonic friend, she wants him to be visualising her when he masturbates, and she wants you to KNOW it.

The only reason that we trust them for so long at the start of the relationship is that we've never encountered someone so able to believe their own lies. None of the normal ways to tell if someone's lying work, because the part of them that's speaking at the moment they lie actually *believes* what they're saying. It's only when you start trying to match their actions up with their words that you find this massive schism and realise how screwed up things really are. I believe that's the most valuable thing I got out of my therapy sessions - I learned, from example, how to avoid the tangents and misdirection and logic games that she plays, and tell her honestly and clearly what she was really saying and doing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You (and I) don't have trust issues, we just have women with trustworthiness issues.

I agree that they cannot be trusted and our instincts are telling us this! The HPD is telling us don't trust your instincts. Your instincts are bad. That's how they guilt us into believing that we are jealous and controlling. I'll say it again: our Grandfather's generation would never have put up with these women and their bad behavior. Our current society turns our natural instincts into something that needs to be punished and extinguished. I didn't even trust my ex-HPD wife to go to the grocery store alone because she might end up with the highschool kid who bags the groceries!! I would send one of the children with her hoping that she wouldn't do such a thing with one of the children with her, would she? They talk about other men constantly then when we don't trust them it's our fault. I lived with this type of behavior until I couldn't take it anymore!

koos12 wrote:. . . They talk about other men constantly then when we don't trust them it's our fault. I lived with this type of behavior until I couldn't take it anymore!

My HPD has been recently telling me how every guy she meets or sees is hitting on her. Obviously, that isn't the case, but, then why is she saying this to me? She's trying to make me jealous, or is she having delusions that this is what's happening. Then she tells me that she has the feeling that she is being stalked by men. Excuse my ignorance as I'm new to all this and just yesterday uncovered this illness and forum, so I'm trying to work some things out based on what I've been reading. Thank goodness I found you folks. I thought I was all alone on this one. Many thanks in advance.

P

caro81VA wrote: Now, I'm struggling with rather the opposite problem. I have a wonderful boyfriend and my instincts on the way he's treating me are very positive. And yet, I struggle with issues of trust, and jealousy, with no real basis for any of that except my own insecurity. He responds to it all with love and patience and never accuses me of anything. What happens next, I don't know. One day at a time.

Ummm, Caro? You might like to read this bit again and rethink this part in particular- 'I struggle with issues of trust and jealousy with no real basis for any of that except my own insecurity'. BS - you're way to over critical of yourself. The REAL basis stems from your last twisted and manipulative relationship with your HPD husband - hence, the 'real' basis stems from a lived experience - your lived experience. Maybe he has conditioned you in his blameshifting tactics, but from what I see, I totally understand resulting baggage related to trust (in particular) and jealousy (which stems from lack of trust). I think trust will be an issue for me in the future too, but I hope that above all that I will 'listen' to myself and 'trust' my own intuition next time around in a relationship. I know one thing for sure, if something doesnt feel right and i ask for an explaination and i get illogical, or around the bend, or tangent responses that dont really answer the question, make sense or attempt to redirect blame onto me i will be out of there so fast that there will be skid marks!! Dont be so hard on yourself, after a rel with a HPD, if trust was not an issue you would not be a 'normal' person!

With my HPD, trust was never an issue because I assumed that I could trust my partner because he was my partner (?? but you know what i mean!) It was only much later that I found that that does not apply in rel's with HPDs, however Caro - it DOES apply in 'normal' relationships. We were NOT stupid to trust, just unlucky with the one we decided TO trust. Dont lose that, your newie does not sound HPD so take a chance on being the person you were before that arsehole corrupted you and your 'normal' approach and philosophies related to relationships and rel dynamics. Recognise that your baggage stems from a real experience with a dysfunctional person.

Reread TK's response - hit the nail on the head with his reply (once again).

Caro - I just read your post again - you said 'Unfortunately, what I did not trust was my own instincts'. THIS is what you need to work on, or just learn to follow it more. The main lesson I have learnt over the last four years is exactly that too. You HAD the intuition, you just allowed it to be clouded and distorted by your HPD (totally understandable, I did the same as did many others here). Most of us felt or knew something was off kilter but made a conscious decision to not act on our intuition. We did that because we know that trust is central to a healthy, real and intimate relationship and that is what we wanted so we gave the benefit of the doubt (sometimes too many times). Our intentions and motivations were honest and directed towards working towards creating an intimate realtionship-good traits in 'normal' people wanting substance (so dont lose that).

Not 'trusting' my intuition or not at least acting upon it is the mistake i will not make again. Just in case I'm not being clear -trusting your partner was NOT the mistake as what is a rel without trust? How the hell were you to know he was not capable of functioning like a 'normal' person? Just dont let it supercede your oun intuition. Trust is a good and liberating thing to have in a healthy relationship. Dont dwell on it as your issue too much, keep in mind that you were with a seasoned ACTOR, NOT a 'normal' person who had the capacity for a 'normal' or 'real' relationship. Dont beat yourself up, how the crap were we to know??

Thank you guys. You guys are all fantastic.

I guess Caro's post on her new relationship touched a soft spot in me with regard to trust . I must accept that I have been a bit afraid to get into a new relationship and have kept away until now. Other issues like jealousy and insecurity are not a problem for me, but this trust issue has been a soft spot, I must say. I am waiting to open my heart again when I feel ready.

TK and Caro - You are right that I started off with my HPD X, trusting her completely. I guess, this initial high investment of trust and its consequent violation left me broken later.

Jay - Right mate. I realize how the pervasive deceit has eaten into my "trust" bank. You are right - I have always been around trustworthy people.

Others' trust (or distrust) is a simple consequence of our trustworthiness. In a relationship with an HPD, she makes your trust of her into a separate entity which you own. Then, if you don't trust her, there's something wrong with YOU.

Beautiful, TK. Such nicely put. I have a saved chat session with my X, where I remember telling her just this.

If you ever felt comfortable with her around him, she'd start dropping hints. "Oh, that was awkward," she'd say

God ! she did this so often.

You (and I) don't have trust issues, we just have women with trustworthiness issues.

I will keep reminding myself of this. Made a note and stuck it on my desk.

You distrusted your HPD so much because you had never seen such a clear violation of ethics, honesty and boundaries and subconsciously you knew something was wrong, but you couldn't have known what.

I know I beat myself up on this enough already. You are right - I knew it subconsciously but just couldn't put my finger on it exactly.