Self-worth from attention

Yeah I see. I thought she was trying to go to the party by herself with some "platonic" friends. Not with you and having you standing around with your thumb up your ass, thinking she's being crazy.

Will5900 wrote:Yeah I see. I thought she was trying to go to the party by herself with some "platonic" friends. Not with you and having you standing around with your thumb up your ass, thinking she's being crazy.

Ah, right. No, in that situation I see where you're coming from. I'd just say "sure, say hi to the girls for me" (if they really were platonic friends) or "why would you think I'd be OK with that?" (if they were her fan club guys).

Will and Tattered...

No, I re-read what I wrote as I was pretty sure I didn't tell him to tell her NOT to go. I said to tell her she shouldn't even WANT to go to the party at a house of a man who wants to sleep with her. THAT is different than TK saying, no we aren't going and that is final.

With the history of Tattered's wife he has acknowledged her problem and he is doing great at putting his foot down. No he shouldn't have to but now that he realizes that HE ISN'T CRAZY that she has a problem, he is doing just what needs to be done to prevent her from doing something drastic to ruin the marriage. NOW, he isn't being weak or jealous at all. It is called boundaries. He isn't creating bounderies for HER. He has now established his OWN boundaries of what he is willing to tolerate.

If she violats them, he is out. She knows this, and he has never taken this stance before so she knows he is serious. But,..... like a child she will every now and then push those boundaries to actually see IF HE IS WEAK and letting up or actually letting down his guard for her to get her validation that she seeks.

TATTERED!! GREAT! that you all haven't had any major ordeals. I would say you are doing so well at the new stance you have taken and you are still giving her that little bit of trust with the computer part, but she also knows if she screws up, she is gone.

So, keep that up. You are not going to regret that. And if she messes up...you will know you did all you could do and that will be on her.

S

No, I re-read what I wrote as I was pretty sure I didn't tell him to tell her NOT to go. I said to tell her she shouldn't even WANT to go to the party at a house of a man who wants to sleep with her. THAT is different than TK saying, no we aren't going and that is final.

I agree with Scarlett. This was the main bone of contention between me and my X.

Everytime my X wanted to meet someone who I had already expressed discomfort with (because I could see the intentions of that guy), I would tell her that given that we had a relationship, she shouldn't even want to go and meet this guy. She shouldn't even be asking me whether she should meet him, when she knows I am not comfortable with this person.

I have thought a lot about this - doubting myself as being jealous or controlling. Frankly, I am myself quite handsome and my ex-gfs would tell me that there is something about my attitude that women find attractive. So, I do know that I attract women in my own way. However, I do take care that when I am in an exclusive relationship, I don't allow myself to be even slightly hit on by other women - because I respect the woman I am in a relationship with. The point is that I am very comfortable with my sexuality and my attraction - I don't actively seek out attention - seeking attention from the opposite sex when you are in an exclusive relationship is in someway disrespectful to your partner, in my opinion. Its is not about jealousy from your partner - it is about the basic acknowledgment you give to your partner that you don't need sexual attention from anyone else when your partner is there for you.

This was one of the reasons (besides the other HPD traits) in my X that I was very uncomfortable about her behavior. She agreed with me in thought - however, in action, she was unwilling to accept that she was seeking attention from her male friends, even when it was evident to me and all our common friends.

newtohpd wrote:Attention from the same-sex is used for support and validation of feelings, while attention from the opposite-sex is used for self-esteem and ego-boost. Both attention is welcome, but same-sex attention is not necessary. Opposite-sex attention is essential.

Interesting. My former female friend who I suspect is HPD behaves much like this in terms of male vs. female attention uses, except that female attention seems vital for her. She is more of a "drama queen" than a "sexy siren," so she thrives on the attention she gets from causing and/or exaggerating problems amongst her friends, family members, neighbours, etc. Her female friends are there to console, offer advice, and validate her feelings every time she presents herself as the victim in one of these scenarios.

At the same time, she is highly competitive and envious of her female friends, so she likes nothing better than to spread gossip, brag about her material possessions (that she buys with taxpayers' money ), and find ways to elevate her self image by putting others down with thinly veiled critical comments. She's like a teenager playing silly social head games with other high school girls, except she's 33 years old!

When she does make a point of seeking out male attention, it's often part of a larger game. For example, she'd flirt online or over the phone with a guy (usually, he'd be an ex-boyfriend of hers or a friend of her husband's) until he responded positively, and then she'd run to her husband crying about how this horrible, horny guy came on to her and has no respect for their marriage. After getting her husband worked up and defensive, she'd find an excuse as to why she had to keep in contact with the guy -- while claiming she didn't want anything to do with him -- and then she'd torture her husband in this way for months, putting him down for being "jealous" and "controlling." Thank goodness they're separated now. She claims that she left him (because she always has to "win" her games), but I suspect her husband finally woke up and ran away from her.

Her other classic game is to spread rumors that a female friend's boyfriend/husband "secretly" wants her. In this way, she can act as if she's "better" than her friend (because she's sexier, understands the guy better, whatever) while claiming that she "feels sorry" for the friend -- and while making her husband jealous as an added bonus. She always says the guy "secretly" wants her because, as far as I know, none of the boyfriends/husbands actually hit on her.

Much of the attention she claims to get from guys is imagined; she sees acquaintances and friendships with men as being more intimate than they really are. This is why I'm a bit confused as to whether she's HPD or not. She fits most of the symptoms, but she does not usually take care of her looks (for example, she'd appear in sweat pants and with dirty, uncombed hair even though she'd be expecting company) and she's average looking, though she'll talk about herself as if she's the sexiest woman alive. Does anyone else know an HPD female like mine?

AnDread wrote:When she does make a point of seeking out male attention, it's often part of a larger game. For example, she'd flirt online or over the phone with a guy (usually, he'd be an ex-boyfriend of hers or a friend of her husband's) until he responded positively, and then she'd run to her husband crying about how this horrible, horny guy came on to her and has no respect for their marriage. After getting her husband worked up and defensive, she'd find an excuse as to why she had to keep in contact with the guy -- while claiming she didn't want anything to do with him -- and then she'd torture her husband in this way for months, putting him down for being "jealous" and "controlling." Thank goodness they're separated now. She claims that she left him (because she always has to "win" her games), but I suspect her husband finally woke up and ran away from her.

You've just described the games my wife used to play to perfection, in every detail from the flirting to 'hook' the friend, the excuses for keeping contact, to the endgame where she's playing them off against each other and crushing the husband with the 'jealous and controlling' tag. Looking back now, I'm still not sure how much of the alleged attention she got was real and how much was fabrication. Thankfully, I think I understand this well enough now to counter it.

Like most passive-aggressive manipulation, this game only works with his cooperation and falls apart if transformed from implied to direct confrontation. His winning move is to call her out as early as possible, the instant she organises to meet with someone who she's recently claimed is showing her unwanted attention. Inform her that he will not accept her encouraging the guy in this or any other manner, and that if she continues to do so he will end the relationship. Now she will test him with tangential accusations and belittlement attempts ("jealous and controlling", "you're pathetic if you feel threatened by him" etc.) He must stick to the message - her behaviour is unacceptable. He'll need to be very self-assured and mentally quick to counter her attempts to regain control. In some cases he may just have to resort to the broken-record treatment (reply to everything with "nonetheless, that is my condition for staying in this relationship"). He must remember that it is *not* a natural rage, and it will evaporate (and she will respect him more) once she accepts that she can't browbeat him.

She may call his bluff and meet up with the other guy. If this happens the relationship is over. If he goes back to her then he destroys his credibility and gives her permission to treat him the same or worse in future. Nonetheless, immediate confrontation gives the relationship its best chance of survival. Passing the subsequent shit-test earns him her respect, and the relationship doesn't have time to take much damage from her game. The only alternatives are delaying his action (which just leads to the same confrontation at later point when she has less incentive to stay), and trying to ignore the situation (which leads to her escalating her game, possibly to the point of physical cheating, and him building resentment to toxic levels).

Her other classic game is to spread rumors that a female friend's boyfriend/husband "secretly" wants her. In this way, she can act as if she's "better" than her friend (because she's sexier, understands the guy better, whatever) while claiming that she "feels sorry" for the friend -- and while making her husband jealous as an added bonus. She always says the guy "secretly" wants her because, as far as I know, none of the boyfriends/husbands actually hit on her.

Again, her game is passive-aggressive, and as such, is countered by making the implied explicit. In this case, whoever she's confiding in (probably her husband again) about the friend's partner wanting her must be willing to take open, transparent action. Call up the friend and her partner, sit the wife down with them and say "[wife] is claiming that [friend's partner] is making moves on her. Whether or not this is true, you two should cut contact for the protection of all involved."

Much of the attention she claims to get from guys is imagined; she sees acquaintances and friendships with men as being more intimate than they really are. This is why I'm a bit confused as to whether she's HPD or not. She fits most of the symptoms, but she does not usually take care of her looks (for example, she'd appear in sweat pants and with dirty, uncombed hair even though she'd be expecting company) and she's average looking, though she'll talk about herself as if she's the sexiest woman alive. Does anyone else know an HPD female like mine?

Taking excessive care of her appearance is common among HPDs, but not essential. Overestimating the intimacy of relationships is one of the DSM criteria for HPD.

TK and AnDread - your stories sound exactly like mine

Hi TatteredKnight,

I think you're absolutely right when you say that the only way to counteract an HPD's head game is to be direct and firm, and to call her out. I think HPDs count on the rest of us being too polite or non-confrontational to do this. The HPD's partner is afraid of losing the relationship, and family members and friends -- like me -- are afraid of causing an uncomfortable scene and creating an opportunity for the HPD to create further drama and hard feelings.

My HPD is a very confrontational person. She is aggressive and self-assured when she feels justified in confronting others, but she cannot take it herself. She flies off the handle when criticized, and she will often perceive a non-personal, friendly disagreement -- or even an offhand comment that she doesn't like -- as criticism. She'll respond with hostility, attacking the other person's credibility and bringing up all sorts of unrelated subjects in the process, then she'll play the "poor me" card by claiming that everyone is attacking her, and then, if you keep pushing her, she'll bring out the tears in a last-ditch attempt to end the confrontation without actually resolving anything. After experiencing a scene like this, most people are too tired and frustrated to keep arguing with her. I understand a similar sort of reaction to perceived criticism happens with narcissists, which is what I previously suspected her to be.

Almost a year ago, I cut most of my contact with her for the sake of my own sanity. (We have many mutual friends, so it's difficult to go completely No Contact without causing a drama.) I didn't yet think she had a personality disorder; I saw her as a manipulative "emotional vampire" type, and I just didn't want her sucking at my soul any longer. But if I ever catch wind of her playing the "her man wants me" game with our friends again, I will remember what you wrote, and I will speak up.

Hi newtohpd,

I first started researching HPD to try to find answers as to why my friend would repeatedly trash our 18-year friendship just for the sake of silly competitiveness or causing some drama. Her actions were very hurtful and confusing to me, and I was looking at the situation from my point of view only.

After browsing through this forum, my eyes have been opened and I am struck by the similarities of all the men's stories. And they reminded me of the games I witnessed my HPD playing with her husband (and even with some of her past boyfriends, now that I think about it...). You're right, when it comes to manipulating men it's as if female HPDs have a playbook that they share with each other!