Question-does HPD really start with their childhood?

C &H,

I SO agree with your last statement too on "addiction". It was an addiction for me that I think was out of control of how many guys/men loved me or admired me or even just from afar. that feeling to me was like a drug and more powerful than anything else in my life. wanting that took precidence over anything else in my life.

I do think I control "the look" pretty well, when I see men looking, I try to pretend I don't notice that they did and especially since I came on this board and realized some things that I still was doing to validate. I don't HAVE to go be "on display" for new men to see me or anything. I really didn't realize that was wrong at the time even though no one would even have to exchange words, just that I knew they saw me.

Tattered has some excellent views on this as he is dealing first hand with his wife. I appreciate the honesty as that is what I need to keep me from repeating past behaviors so that I one day can say I am not afraid to be happy and AM 100 percent happy in my life, instead of mostly happy.

S

Scarlett1939 wrote:Tattered that was excellent and I never really looked at it that way of "queen of her own hive". But that nails it for me. I really was my own boss when I was a teen. I mothered my little brother and sister and did as I pleased. I never let anyone interfere with what i waned to do except my dad. But at the time didn't see it as control. I wanted to spend time with him and even gave up time with my friends to hang out with my dad.

Glad I could be helpful. I haven't seen the movie you mention, but it sounds like it's a brilliant example of why the father/daughter relationship is key in developing HPD. A good talk with Daddy sets her back on the right track... but how would she have turned out without Daddy giving her that talk? What if instead of him saying "it's not right to lead boys around on a string", he'd said "you can do whatever you want because you're so pretty"?

Girls in this situation who aren't attractive enough for seduction to be an option are in the same position as boys, so I'd guess they would develop in the same way. If they are otherwise unremarkable, they'd become angry and rebellious, join a gang, pick fights, that sort of thing. Or, if otherwise talented, they could develop NPD, building a protective false self with value based on their physical or mental prowess in their chosen field instead of on their sexual, seductive and manipulative powers.

confused and hurt wrote:Maybe tattared, has something to add, as far as trying to stop the look? To me, it is almost like it has to be treated not as a habit, but as an addiction....just a thought of course...

I assume from the rest of the thread that you don't mean the blank dissociative stare, but rather the 'I'm up for some action and it could be with you!' behaviour. If so, it's not something that you can 'stop'. Beware of enmeshment, and remember you only ever control your own behaviour. Her behaviour is based on her choices, conscious or unconscious. It's something that the person with HPD has to first realise they're doing, then choose to stop, and then finally act on that choice. Scarlett exemplifies this perfectly. She's become conscious that she deliberately attracts attention, she's decided that she doesn't want to behave that way, and she's making a big effort to control it.

Scarlett1939 wrote:Tattered has some excellent views on this as he is dealing first hand with his wife. I appreciate the honesty as that is what I need to keep me from repeating past behaviors so that I one day can say I am not afraid to be happy and AM 100 percent happy in my life, instead of mostly happy.

Any time! It's a pleasure to be able to actually talk about these issues without being told "**** off and stop with the psychology crap". And the level of self-awareness that you've reached gives me hope that maybe someday my wife will get there too, if I hang on long enough.

Sadly I don't know if that will happen. I've set a strict boundary that if anyone asks her for more than friendship, she will not spend time alone with them without my consent (obviously brief accidental meetings won't trigger this boundary, but inviting them to our house when I'm not there certainly will). If she does so then I will leave the relationship. I've made this very clear, and so far she's reacted angrily and refused to acknowledge it, but I don't need her acceptance - this is my boundary, and I have the power to leave if I so choose.

Hi Tattered,

I have to say, your story is much more complicated than mine. You are still married to this woman and abviously still live together. My relationship was long distance. I could not begin to understand how hard this must be for you.

It must be very difficult living with this everyday, trying your best to work it out , standing by her and getting very little understanding or support for your affords return. It is a shame, that they do not recongnize how loved they truly are and how committed we are to the relationship . So frustrating...I admire your strength and resolve.

I do recongize that it is important you now have control, as you have the power to stay or go. I believe that is important, for your own sanity, confidence and self worth...Especially if you decide to leave, as it will give you better closure, as you will have based your decision on what is right for your future happiness. Plus knowing you tried your very best to help her.

I guess Scarlett has given you hope. She really demonstrates her resolve to get over this. I hope yours does come around, so you can get on with your life. Hard to hold unto hope for too long though....as life is too short to stay in these unhealthy relationships....

I have not read all your posts. Was your wifes childhood background similiar to Scarlett's or my ex HSP G/F? If you prefer to keep that private, I will understand. Just trying to understand this issue and how it relates to thier behavior.

It would also be good to hear from others, as to the childhood background of thier HPD's or other HPD's...as well..

C&H

confused and hurt wrote:
Has anyone else tried to pin point why thier former HPD ended up with this disorder? Has anyone else heard about the childhood of thier HPD? Is there a connection? From what I have read it can be learned behavior or genes. Did your HPD discuss thier chidhood?

c&h, i don't want to diminish your question, but I think you can waste a lot of time and energy trying to understand "why". It doesn't help you any, and becomes one more way for the HPD to deflect responsibility for their actions (not to mention a way to attract attention talking about their past in great detail).

There is no excuse for the HPD abusing you.... no matter what their childhood was like.

**

confused and hurt wrote:I have to say, your story is much more complicated than mine. You are still married to this woman and abviously still live together. My relationship was long distance. I could not begin to understand how hard this must be for you.

I don't know about more complicated - it's been hell in the past but it's improving now to the point where it's now bearable. She's stopped with the fan club guy stuff as far as I can tell. If she has an outburst or she's narky about something she'll apologise afterwards. It's tough not knowing when the other shoe's going to drop but right now, things are good.

And yes, Scarlett's given me a lot of hope, because in a lot of ways she's very similar to my wife, and yet she's managed to recognise what she was doing to hurt her husband and she's chosen to stop and to become a better person.

I have not read all your posts. Was your wifes childhood background similiar to Scarlett's or my ex HSP G/F? If you prefer to keep that private, I will understand. Just trying to understand this issue and how it relates to thier behavior.

There are a few similarities, although still a lot of differences. My wife lost her father at a very early age, and suffered lifelong physical and emotional abuse from her mother. In terms of childhood, the story I've heard most is that of an abusive or emotionally unavailable mother, and a doting father figure who gives attention when the child acts precocious or 'cute'. Emotionally, the child is often vying with the mother for the father's attention. There's sometimes an element of violence between the mother and father. The child's healthy self esteem withers without acceptance from the mother, while the father teaches them that they can still be worth something if they're being cute or attractive.

I agree with you that understanding the underlying causes is helpful. It helps me be patient when she's acting out, the way you're patient with an injured animal that snaps at you. It still hurts but you can see it's out of pain, not malice. And the more I understand, the more likely I am to be able to help her. If there are specific, simple changes that I can make to my behaviour that will help her to recognise and change hers (and from discussions with my therapist, there certainly are), then it would be negligent of me not to do so.

As for too much detail, I think most of us here are relying on the fact that the main coping mechanisms of most HPDs are repression and denial. An HPD looking at themselves, thinking "wow my life keeps following this destructive pattern, I wonder if it's my fault", and searching for symptoms online is about as likely as, well, a very very unlikely thing.

Scarlett, I believe you are pretty close to answering this question in your post about the relationship with your mother. You and I had a little debate recentluy about the transmitting of signals and part of the etiology theory relating to the father. I'm still not going to try and sell you on it... just putting the theory out there for you, and for the benefit of 'confused and hurt.' I'm not going to bother quoting sources, though there are many. Google or go to the library if you feel the need to confirm or deny. I have read dozens of books relating to cluster B in it's many iterations and this is how it goes...

The infant-mother relationship is critical to development as everyone knows. The infant goes through the stages of maturation based on a secure bonding with the mother. When that bonding does not develop completely or is interrupted, the emotional development of the infant or child (depending on the stage) can be arrested, leaving the child stuck at that level of maturity. It is also possible for the child to revert to a prior stage of development in response to interruption of the bond at a later stage. Arrested development used to be called 'infantile personality' and is theoretically more difficult to treat than reversion. With reversion the maturation was accomplished but reversed, with infantile personality the child never made it through that stage.

So as the theory goes when mother-child bond is unsatisfactory the child will naturally turn to another caregiver for emotional connection. Enter the father. The daughter learns to behave in such a way as to attract the father's attention and affection. The daughter becomes competitive with the mother, attempting to steal the father away and become his primary object. This widens the split with the mother, creates resentment and competitiveness and as the daughter matures she becomes frustrated that she cannot win the father completely––he still sleeps with the mother and expresses affection for her, although he is responsive to the daughter as well. The daughter subconsciously wants to replace the mother in every way, meaning she wants to seduce the father. The father is subconsciously attracted sexually to the daughter as well but holds her at arms length because allowing those feelings into the conscious mind (much less acting on them) is the most stringent taboo in all societies. So the daughter and father are engaged in this repetitive dance of attraction, seduction, responsiveness, closeness, fear, and distancing. It happens over and over and the daughter is always frustrated because the father invariably betrays her for her rival, the mother. As the daughter reaches puberty and sexual maturity she transfers this frustrated, unrequited love for the father to other men. She also transfers the anger, resentment and frustration due to repeated rejection. She expects the other objects to replace the father, to live up to her idealized image of the father, and she strives to conquer and possess them emotionally. When she does, she doesn't know how to reciprocate with mature love, but she does know the dance and the conquering is as far as it goes. Once that is accomplished she either rejects him and repeats the dance with another, or attempts to hold on and projects her anger and frustration onto him, punishes and devalues him for not living up to the idolized father image while initiating the same pattern with additional other objects. She seeks the unconditional love she never attained as a child, but loses interest and sabotages any relationship in which the man actually tries to give his love completely. The bonding issues with the mother result in an undeveloped ego and inability to moderate the id drives, resulting in impulsive promiscuous sexual behavior to conquer, reject and repeat with another.

Of course this is generalized and simplified, and there are many nuances depending upon the individual. It's also probable that there is some biological predisposition combined with environmental influences that manifest differently from one individual to the next. But generally this is the theory as to what causes HPD and various iterations of cluster B disorders.

Sante Fe,
I am sorry I missed this post, but was really busy and meant to go back and read this and respond.

I think I told you before that I believe Frued was a very sick man to believe that boys want to sleep with their mothers and fathers with daughters and all that so I don't put a lot of stock in that part, but some of the other points are very true. Perhaps HE just had this view and wanted to project that on others.

BUT... I will say that my mom NEVER gained my fathers love, and my father in his OWN CRAZY way loved us kids and still does, so that was strike one against us kids. BUT, I am the only one of us four that turned out looking like my dad and his side of the family so that was strike TWO against me. THEN my dad cheated on my mom with a lady that had a name one letter different from mine and strike THREE I was OUT in my mom's view. She made fun of me, hit me, tormented me when my dad was gone because he always protected me from her.

So that explains the side of being rejected by the mother. My mother DID at one point and time accuse my dad of wanting us daughters ina sexual way. BUT, I know a lot of women that do this in a divorce so that everyone will be sympathetic to her and not judge her for getting a divorce especially my VERY strict southern baptist grandparents. So I don't put a lot of stock in THAT either that she really believed that or othewise we woudl have NEVER been allowed to go visit. And we were with him three out of four weekends a month, all summer, Christmases and any breaks in school in between. So she really didn't believe that.

Now I grew up under false pretenses believing that I was a daddy's girl. I thought he woudl do anything for me, but really he was PRIMING ME to become his personal slave and attendent. He could guilt me into anything and I would do it. I never told him no and always catored to his every whim and some of them were really crazy. I couldn't stand for him to ever be upset with me.

THEN in walks my husband as my boyfriend. Whem my dad learned we were getting married he acted okay, then threw a fit because we told him not to wear his army dress greens to the wedding because it was very small and not fancy, no music so would have been silly to walk down the isle. From that day forward he caused me problems and made demands on me to DO FOR HIM still including driving two hours to clean his house. It never occurred to me to say no even though I didn't want to . I was married witha baby, in college, and then began working 35 hours a week, but STILL dropped everything for my dad. The first time I told him no I wasn't coming was during an Ice storm and I had slid off the road after picking up my baby(now 16) from her baby sitter. I was shaken and scared but she was fine and I was fine just a little dent in the fender. I called to tell him thinking he would say don't come be safe. He yelled at me and demanded I still make the two hour drive and told me to leave my baby with her grandma. I hung up and was so upset I called him back and told him NO, I am not chancing it. THe whole state was under a severe travel advisery. And he and I have had probems every since. AT one point and time my husband told me if I didn't stop doing these stupid things for my dad he was going to leave me. And I did stop and told my dad and still continue to tell my dad to straighten up when he acts stupid.

So long story longer... either way my parents screwed up with us kids any way you look at it. I know I am not going to make those same mistakes and my kids are very healthy and happy and that is how I intend it to stay. My mom and me are okay now, but my kids still don't get to stay the night with her and her husband just IN CASE she ever decides to revert back to old ways. Plus he drinks some and gets gripy when he drinks and my kids aren't going to tiptoe around ANYONE like that ever so it is just the best that they don't stay. I can't take that chance on scarring my kids.

So thank you for the debate/advice/suggestions Sante Fe and sorry it took so long to get back to you.
S

Scarlett,
You can believe Frued was projecting his own sicko fantasies onto his patients if you want, but your personal dismissal of the Father of Psychology, unaccompanied by convincing evidence [which has been attempted for a century], doesn't quite remove his authoritative presence from the body of psychological knowledge or a personal debate. I don't believe he claimed that these motivations often took the form of conscious thought- they are mostly subconscious, seldom realized by the individual as anything more than unexplained emotions or behaviors. And as long as we're talking about projection, have you considered that an individual whose development has been most affected by these dynamics might also be working the hardest to keep this realization outside of conscious thought through the use of repression? I don't need to defend Frued, just making the point that he is not easily dismissed.

Your opinion of one person or theory notwithstanding, there are many authoritative names in the field who either helped define or wholly subscribe to one of the variants of these theories, psychosexual stages of development in particular. I would refer to Ruesch's papers, many of which are available online, and include etiologies of hysteria, infantile personality and somatoform disorders. The key events in the development of histrionic PD is always said to be early disruption of the infant-mother bond, the child eventually turning to the father as the source of primary nurturance at the oedipal stage, and that stage remaining unresolved.

From everything I have read and seen, I believe that a person can be genetically predisposed to HPD if the environmental factors are right. I don't believe that Freud has all the answers, although certainly he made many valuable contributions psychology.

My ex-HPD's father abandoned her and her mother when she was an infant. Her mother was alternatingly neglectful and overbearing, providing a fertile ground for the development of HPD. There was never a father in the picture, although I know that my ex was deeply affected by the fact of the abandonment. My ex was lonely as a child and considered herself homely, but during adolescence she blossomed into a beauty and quickly learned that she could hide her low self esteem under the mask of her beauty. To this day she turns the heads of both men and women and has been in relationships with men and women, but only in love once, and that was with a woman.