They must reconquer

harrison56 wrote:At one point I said, "Barbara, all people have issues. I have issues for which I have sought help. Answer me "yes" or "no" do you think you have issues?" Honest to goodness, there was just a long pause and then she said, "I don't answer those kind of questions."

Gee, you were lucky you got a long pause. If she was NPD, she'd have likely gotten violent with you, if she was BPD she'd have smashed the place up, perhaps have gotten violent, then self-harmed and then set up a suicide situation! If she was male, she'd have probably knocked your lights out!!

I think we've all been there and done that, attempted to speak some sort of sense into them. But she's what, 52? Ain't gonna change anything now. She may, and that's a very small percentage, have a Eureka! moment in her later years....but don't count on it.

Anyway, you've come to the right place to vent your frustrations and emotions. Lots of good blokes on here who can help you. All the best with your recovery, you sound like a really nice bloke.

Cheers

Dear Shivers,

Thanks much. I have been told I am actually a pretty kind person on occasion. And I seem to recovering pretty well. What has helped is to really recover what I can only call my "sense of reality." That is, to accept the reality of who she is at a very deep level. This has been facilitated by a couple of people who have known her and in whom I can place my trust because we are friends and have a shared history.

They have seen her behavior. And they tell me that I am spot on in the analysis. For some reason, this seems important to get sort of an outsider's view of things. It is allowing me to trust myself again, that I am not the crazy one. Interestingly enough, one of my old friends said that my ex was one of the most competitive people she had ever met. Of course, they cover this up with their "bubbly, wouldn't harm a flea" personalities.

Well, I am doing better and better and this forum has been great help, gleaning insights, helping me recover my sense of self. And as Toni Morrison, the writer once noted, "when you know better, you do better." So I know better and I will do better.

I saw my ex for the first time since she devalued and discarded me. Fortunately, I met her on the road and I was turning and she didn't see me. I didn't realize I had such pent up anger. She was her usual dolled up self, her hair in a little bobbed ponytail more appropriate for a 19 year old than a 52 year old grandmother. I could tell she was in her bubble. It is good that I was in this space when I met her. I was able to drive home and go through my catharsis there.

I must admit I was surprised at my reaction. In this town, I knew I would see her at some point but I didn't think I would be so angry. In any case, in some ways, I think it has helped me on the road to recovery to see her. I am in no contact and will never contact her. Ever. Unless I meet her on the sidewalk, I will not speak to her and only then a very brief "hello" and keep walking. This is the advice of my therapist.

When I got home I realized that she probably hasn't give me much thought. And that I am the one so angry. She is off doing whatever it is she is doing in her little skewed and screwed up world. I am the one left dealing with this.

I am getting there, though. I am in so much better shape this week than last week. I take to heart that it takes about one month of no contact for some healing to begin.

As I mentioned previously, one of the things the therapist taught me was just how much anger and drama that some hp's can create. I think she is the more passive aggressive kind. In an argument, she doesn't get that angry. By her actions, blank expressions, and refusals to respond in a normal fashion, she gets the other person upset. She is the puppet master in charge of the drama. And she loves it.

No wonder her ex was so angry. I am not an angry person. Never have been. But this relationship with her drew out the worst in me. And then she became the victim.

These are little steps for me. It would be so much easier if we lived in a large city, but we don't. So I am going to have to exercise great discipline for I will see her out from time to time.

I am no youngster and I am not naive in the ways of the world, but I have never had someone do this kind of number on me. I know the red flags now of the cluster b personality disorders and I will be guarded.

I am so thankful I found this forum. I am one of those people who has to understand as much as I can. I can then despersonalize it a bit which is also helpful. I know that her new boyfriend has no clue at this point, assuming he is a fairly average chap. But he will. If she stays true to form, he too will find her drawing out the worst in him, listening as I did one time when she was telling someone that she was a homecoming queen thirty five years ago at a little high school and then jr. college.

Someone described it as a house of mirrors. It really is.

Hard won knowledge is generally never forgotten.

On edit: A couple of things that I recall which is helpful for me to continue piece all of this together and ACCEPT REALITY.

She said that her brother in law was always hitting on her when she was growing up. Then a couple of years ago, she called me in a stir because a graduating high school senior at the school where she taught had actually hit on her twice. She was alarmed because she didn't know how to handle it. As an attorney, I was used to dealing with crisis situations and we were able to figure out what to do.

Now, in retrospect, and after chatting with a few people who were at the school, I found out that she was flirting with her male students much of the time. I have no doubt that she was probably sending this kid some clear signals. However, he waited a couple of weeks before the end of school to make his move. I realize now she was freaking out more about possible job termination than anything. I don't think anything was going on, but who knows. After all, this was the same woman who a few weeks ago was dancing with some recent students in a bar in a city.

As far as her brother in law I now see that in a different light, like the light of a projector. She was probably in her own competition with her sister.

Then last year, she said that a pest control guy who had visited her house had actually hit on her and had come by to see her later. She called, all freaked out about that.

These are not just coincidences. Stupid me. I took her word every time.

At the very least, she was flirting with all these guys, sending out her signals.

Boy she is a real piece of work. But she denies being vain, dramatic, manipulative and flirtatious. This woman is in such denial about her behavior as to be almost incomprehensible. I am positive that in her mind she thinks she is so beautiful that she can't help it if men so desire her.

Thank God I didn't marry her. My sudden job less which I described in my first post turned out to be such a blessing in disguise. It revealed who she really was.

harrison56 wrote:
I must admit I was surprised at my reaction. In this town, I knew I would see her at some point but I didn't think I would be so angry. In any case, in some ways, I think it has helped me on the road to recovery to see her. I am in no contact and will never contact her. Ever. Unless I meet her on the sidewalk, I will not speak to her and only then a very brief "hello" and keep walking. This is the advice of my therapist.

When I got home I realized that she probably hasn't give me much thought. And that I am the one so angry. She is off doing whatever it is she is doing in her little skewed and screwed up world. I am the one left dealing with this.

Hey Harrison56,

Sounds like your therapist is quite knowledeable. Glad you have such a competent counselor working with you

Many of us here know of that anger you speak of...it is a part of recovery, and it also shows your insight into what the HPD really is...her mask is off now and you see how she really operates. She will always operate on the shallow end and will always live in a world of denial. They can't look in the mirror for good reason. How could someone who manipulates, deceives, cheats, blameshifts, and full of emotional abuse ever really be honest with who they are?

Yes you are left to deal with the aftermath, and right now it does feel raw. However, time and patience are your allies and you will heal from this. Moreover, unlike the HPD, you have the ability to have a full range of emotions, you have empathy, and you also have the full ability to love. In time you will think less and less of her and more on how to rebuild your own life. In time you will once again thrive. In good time you will have other opportunities of all aspects of life if you choose

Your exHPD will still be running around, playing the same ol games, and slowly deteriorating from it. That is all she has and all she ever will be.

I am glad you found this board. Continue to take good self care and the sun will return in your life, maybe even better than ever

be well

Hey harrison, the emotions that you'll be needing to work through are: anger, disappointment, sense of betrayal, loss, anger, hatred, and oh, did I say anger? Don't ignore or rush the process. It's a sense of grieving really. Once you work through them and start to reach a sense of indifference, you'll be well on your way to recovery. Time frames? Anywhere from say, 6 months to 2 years or even more for some.

The realisation of how much these people live in denial is truly spectacular. It's un-nerving, fascinating, unbelievable, incomprehensible and kinda sad, all at the same time. Plus, if you hang around it for too long, you start to question your own senses of reality. Which is all rather disconcerting.

But there is life after being attached to a personality disordered person. In fact, in some respects, it's a better life, thanks to the new found knowledge.

Thanks much for the replies. I continue to process it all. I continue to read so many posts on this site. How helpful they have been. And I keep posting and responding, not only for my sanity but in the hope that in relating my experience, it will help other folks gain insight. For instance, in an earlier post I related how she had all these incidents with guys "hitting" on her. Every time I believed her. Every time. Now, I see how wrong I was, that it was more than likely her sending out her signals. And there were other times as well.

But she portrayed herself as so innocent. She always portrayed as innocent, a victim.

She had that strange use of language. Dramatic, but vague. That's her to a t. I rationalized that as her being an artist.

Guys hit on her? They were just being aggressive toward a good looking woman.

Her husband's anger? Well, how could be angry toward a cheerful person?

Interruptions in conversation? Just a bad habit left over from a dominating husband who wouldn't let her get a word in, edge wise.

Vain. No, she just takes pride in her appearance.

Outlandish on the dance floor. She was just having a good time.

Women don't like her. They were just jealous of her.

Changing teaching jobs every seven years? Anyone can get bored. She just needed a change of scenery.

I rationalized it all.

The surprising thing, the one I didn't really understand until the therapist told me was the competitive nature. I thought it was just her sporting nature. I certainly didn't expect an art teacher and artist to be competitive. I didn't realize that she had to win. That she could not abide losses.

I will never forget the blank look when I told her the truth about herself. I wish I had a video camera. I might as well have been lecturing in Portuguese about the dissection of an alley cat. It was one of the most inpenetrable gazes I have ever seen. And yet she prided herself on being "deep."

She was an absolute load of projections. She came back a couple of months ago from the beach. She stopped by my house and said she had been there with some women friends. "I couldn't wait to get back. Those women were so full of drama." At this point she rolled her eyes in a dramatic fashion.

Then she began to show me pictures on her camera phone, where the women had their picture taken with a young thirty something lead singer of the house band, the house being an old coastal honky tonk. She was kneeling down, next to him, smiling. I almost laughed out loud at the absurdity of it, as if getting up close and personal with the lead singer of a honky tonk band was something special, especially when she was fifty two. Then she proceeded to tell me how they danced all the time there. And at one point, during a break in the music, the lead singer hollered through the microphone, "Where's Barbara from (and he named the town). Because she obviously had been such a party animal and he had recognized her, gave her that attention. She was so proud of that moment.

The absolute absurdity of it all keeps striking me.

I understand that this is a seriously disturbed woman. I understand this now. How I did not really recognize that during our dating period is simply beyond me. But I didn't. And yet, there she goes in her little bubble of life, cheerful, vivacious, being everyone's friend, the life of the party. In total denial about every bit of this.

When the scales fall from your eyes, they fall fast and furious sometimes. This woman has absolutely NO INSIGHT to herself, but claims that she does.

I am now convinced that a team of psychiatrists could not begin to break through her denial.

She will never have a Eureka moment. She is way too deep in denial. Interesting enough, I have heard from some folks around town that she has now developed a reputation for drinking a good bit. And that in some circles, some folks consider her a bit crazy. Apparently she is not fooling everyone.

But there is some freedom and relief in accepting the reality of this person. There really is.

harrison56 wrote:The absolute absurdity of it all keeps striking me.

I understand that this is a seriously disturbed woman. I understand this now. How I did not really recognize that during our dating period is simply beyond me. But I didn't. And yet, there she goes in her little bubble of life, cheerful, vivacious, being everyone's friend, the life of the party. In total denial about every bit of this.

When the scales fall from your eyes, they fall fast and furious sometimes. This woman has absolutely NO INSIGHT to herself, but claims that she does.

I am now convinced that a team of psychiatrists could not begin to break through her denial.

She will never have a Eureka moment. She is way too deep in denial. Interesting enough, I have heard from some folks around town that she has now developed a reputation for drinking a good bit. And that in some circles, some folks consider her a bit crazy. Apparently she is not fooling everyone.

But there is some freedom and relief in accepting the reality of this person. There really is.

The absurdity is stunning and the ironies are endless. What they say and what they do are often completely different. She causes emotional blackmail yet presents to everyone as a victim. They go to great lengths to villainize you yet the reality is you were abused by a lunatic

While the scales do fall fast and furious, a important door has opened for you. Your newfound realizations have also allowed you a freedom to begin healing. You no longer have to drink their kool-aid, play in their endless games, and no longer have to run exhausted from putting out their endless drama.

You will go through a range of emotions for awhile. However, that will fade in good time and with it will come a renewal for you to design a life that works best for you. As you mend from this, opportunities will present themselves and you will be able to rebuild in a way that suits you.

I am saddened that you have to go through this, but am glad you have your clarity back and am on the road back to recovery

Hang on, it really does get better

So many comments have been helpful and I stay on this site because it just helps me accept reality. There is one issue which is difficult and I have seen it addressed from time to time. How do I work through my intense feelings of jealousy which it comes to sex? I don't know how else to say it? On a rational level, I know I will never be with this woman in my life. And there is absolutely no point in investing any more time thinking about it, but it is difficult knowing she is now giving to other men what I thought was special for me.

Of course, I now understand that it wasn't special for me. That is part of the pain. And part of the pain is understanding that while I don't think she cheated on me when we together, it is clear that she was like some kind of homing signal, send out all kinds of signals to men everywhere. As I stated elsewhere, she was constantly letting me know when she was meeting new men. So there was deception in that perhaps she wasn't overtly cheating, but she really, really wanted their attention. And while I know that some might argue she did cheat on me, the fact is, she was demanding so much attention almost every day, that I don't think she was cheating.

As my sister said, the more I think about it all, the more it empowers her in my life, the old saying about her living rent free in my head.

So, it is more healthy to not think about it; healthier to try and just accept it as is. What?

I do know that in time I will come to a place of indifference. That happened with my ex wife. But getting there seems to be painful. I am absolutely committed to no contact. That is not a problem.

Seeing her realistically has been the best salve so far. Seeing all her lies and deceptions and manipulations in total has helped me realize that I don't want to be with someone like that. But in those still moments, the imagination wreaks havoc.

Any suggestions?

Guys,

Love.

I'm a severe HPD male.

I don't know if this helps or hinders, maybe both.

You were not an intended victim.


I know the story, I've been through it dozens of times, I know some of my victims' stories too, because bizarrely enough I am friends with a few of them, the ones who came out the other side and said 'Boy, have you got a problem! Get some HELP!'

If you prefer to think of her as never having cared at all, okay, but I don't think that can be as useful as understanding her properly. She never intended to hurt you, she didn't set out to dump you. She set out to finally be able to be in love the way she's always wanted (and is still desperate for) but some dumb thing, utterly innocent, somehow triggered her ejector seat and it wasn't her and it wasn't you. But now she's as miserable as you are / were and still desperately seeking that love. If you can be in touch with her, take back your pride by being the guy that can help her find that love by helping her to fence off the coal pit she compulsively drags her relationships into. She'll be flattered that you think she should see a psychiatrist, believe me. She'll love it. But she'll probably want to thank you for it in dangerous ways, so careful.

It's taken me twenty years to realise I was even in a pattern. And I'm not dumb, I just refuse to introspect. Until recently, thanks to Sophie and Janina, who are a lot smarter and stronger than me.

Love,

Charlie

Charlie,

I can assure you that she didn't love me for telling her to seek therapy. I allowed myself to be pulled back in by her and once she realized that things were not going to back to the time where I was giving her all this attention and was insisting she seek help, she devalued and discarded me. In short, she is too far gone mainly because of her age, I think. She is fifty two.

For over a year I insisted she seek counseling as a condition of our relationship. She refused and in the meantime hooked up with at least two other men, one an unsuccessful relationship. She is still with the other guy at least for as long as he can put up with her drama and attention seeking. As a therapist noted, her future will consist of men "using her and then discarding her." And it will get worse because she is aging.

No sadder words than "too late." But for her it is too late.

Here's hoping that it isn't too late for you.