My therapist hit the nail yesterday!

Hello all. I've been going through some very sad days of late, and feeling that besides all the "scientific" explanations about personality disorders, there is also still a very real and deep hurt caused by losing a loved one, and being cheated on with another man... The thought of other guys having very decadent s** (trust me on that one without hearing the details) with MY lover is unbearable on some days.

Yeah, I know: "she was never mine to begin with", "it wasn't really love" and "she wasn't ideal, she was just your mirror image". I've read all of that, and I can see that it is in all likelihood true, but it sure feels different inside... Plus there are some very confusing things about our relationship that make me really sad.. She was just soooo sweet and tender for almost two years (even though there were red flags) and lord knows I wasn't always the perfect man..

Anyhow, what I meant to write originally is that I'm seeing a therapist at the moment (and will for some time) because I just don't feel like a man anymore... Can you blame me? She was a bombshell redhead, very sensual, but I lived a sexless life with her... Confusingly enough I sometimes refused sex - tricky issue: I was so hurt by her regular withholding of sex that I sort of resisted her when she DID want to have sex at times - sometimes to sort of let her know how it felt, sometimes because I felt I couldn't switch myself 'on' instantly after a long period of forced asexuality.

But I digress: I lived a sexless life all last year, with a woman who insisted on dressing incredibly sexy for all other men in society at the same time. Then she started telling me she was no longer attracted to me, that I wasn't sexy, macho and manly enough, and in the end she had the most decadent sex with other guys, right where and when they wanted her... And as a parting gift she told me I wasn't dominating her enough...

So here I am! Seeing a therapist for not feeling like anything of a man, and as a consequence unable to meet let alone talk to women, although I'd LOVE to be with someone right now, even if it's not THE one. I've missed out on so much affection the last year that I really feel lovestarved.

Well yesterday my therapist told me in a nutshell why I feel 'emasculated': my (probably HPD) ex made me give up everything that was raw, primal, manly and sexual about myself and the went to look for exactly THAT in other men...

And now I don't know if it's me that just wasn't 'man' enough or if this is something that HPDs do to men? (ladies, I don't know how this would work when you switch gender between victim and HPD). She was just such a helpless, poor, hurt girl who'd been sexually abused and was very confused sexually, and deceived by so many men, that I felt that she needed me to reaaaaaaaaally reaaaally respect her boundaries (after the first five months of smooooking sex - cold turkey, I can tell you). And so I didn't push her, and we mostly just cuddled and started to live brother and sister - although she did so little and I had to take care of almost everything so it was more father and daughter you could say.

And after a while, yeah, you just lose your sexdrive.. You don't want to pressure a girl that's been sexually abused, right? And it's easiest to really let your libido slide down the hill, then to live in constant frustration "just 'cause you're not getting any". And then it becomes hard to regain that sexual way of living..

Am I making any sense here? Anyone with the same experience? I'm trying to make heads or tails out of one big mess, and lately I'm more and more terrified that I just should have been more 'aggressive'... I can't forgive myself for NOT wanting to have sex with her on the times when she did want to make love, and I keep on thinking that maybe this would have changed everything.

After all, you do need to have sex to keep a relationship alive... Without it, it withers away.. And I sometimes think that it was all my fault...

A sad day for me...
I'll write more later today, as the words come to me.

donlimpio, I'm so sorry this has caused you to feel this way. I've been married for 31 years and I know what makes a marriage work. I also know what can make it fall apart, however, if only by obsevation of others. If there is not balance it won't work. I'm not saying 50/50. I'm saying that each has 100% to give. At some time one may only have 80% to give, so the other picks up the slack... and then it may flip flop. Anyway that's how we do it.

What I have read in many of your posts have dealt with sex. I know....men just have to have it. I do understand that. However, you have to realize that sex is not what it's all about. I think the root of sexuality, for normal people, is your opinion of yourself. You are really blaming yourself for this breakup. Maybe you don't fully acknowlege that...but you are! The only thing you can see is where the sex was tied into every aspect of your realtionship with your HPD. Sex was her tool and her weapon! She used it very well against you! If the person you're with doesn't love you, it's just sex. It's nice to know that when it's over you'll have confidence that you'll have that loving intimacy with your true love again and again with all the love that goes with it. I'm sure that having sex with her was like having a piece of cake when your on a diet. You knew that if you took just one bite then you'd want another and it was not going to be available to you. Your sexuality is based on how she made you feel. She is probably, just like all the other HPD'S, a master at what she does and she will do it again to someone else. A normal woman won't do that. I'm sure you are a much more deserving person than what she made you feel like. You have to work on the truth of this situation...who you really are and how you really feel about yourself!

You sound like a very nice person who is trying to pull yourself together. I'm sure that if you write down all of the wonderful things about yourself and then write down all the things that you feel are wonderful about her you would see the difference in the quality of each of you. Keep telling yourself "I'm a really good person. I deserve love. (remember love first!) And I deserve sex with someone I love." Remember all the qualities you wrote down about yourself and realize how a normal woman would appreciate those things. Believe me there is a shortage of really good men out there! I've seen so many women fall for the wrong guys. I'm sure that a good woman would want a good man such as yourself!


It may be good for you to go out just so you can have contact with women. (I know this would be scary...but look at what you just went through....could anything be as scary as that?) I know that sometimes having someone flirt with you will give you a boost of confidence. It doesn't have to turn out to be anything at all, just to let you know that you're attractive to someone. If you have friends that go out you can go in a group so that it is more casual and you won't feel pressured. And just getting the "hang of it" again....learning to be single again. At least this time you'll know what to look for. I don't know if you're a religious person or not , however, I find that a prayer helps me when I have to face a scary or new situation.

You will be OK... it'll just take time. Try to be good to yourself through all of this!

donlimpo,
pardon me for being direct, but the theme of your posts seems to be "if I had just...", followed by erroneous should've, could've ought statements––the seeds of self-doubt that she planted and that you are still cultivating! quit watering them! these are irrational beliefs that can be dispelled. on one level, cognitively, you know better but since beliefs are integrated, like bad habits, they tend to form the basis of patterns that keep you stuck in cyclical thinking and emoting. many are variants of beliefs that are adaptive in the context of normal interpersonal relations so dispelling needs to be specific to context. use your cognitive ability to break them down by being specific and not generalizing healthy beliefs inappropriately. example of healthy, rational belief: If I am honest, open, empathetic and generous, people will appreciate it and reciprocate. irrational extension of belief: since I gave everything, invested myself completely, and received nothing (or worse) in return, there must be something wrong with me. irrational belief: if I had given just a little bit more or been a little bit better or different in some way, she would have loved me, treated me well, been faithful, made a wonderful spouse, mother and life partner.

the lack of sexual feelings and motivation during times of emotional lows are normal hormonal reactions. emotions regulate production of neurotransmitters. the serotonin-dopamine high that we experience with brand new love is the result of evolution selecting for organisms that are highly motivated to reproduce. evolution has also selected for individuals with strong bonding characteristics. we experience these as feelings but biologically they are driven by production of hormonal combinations that produce limerous to motivate us to seek, homeostasis in the security of stable relationships and other states that make it painful to break established bonds. the balance will stabilize with healing and self-actualization. you likely have low serotonin, part of an overall combo to discourage precisely the things that have transpired. yours work, hers don't. know that you also have the capacity to benefit from the most positive combinations in the context of a healthy reciprocal relationship.

HPDs seek attachments to fill the holes their weak sense of self, yet no matter how much you give it's not enough. once the attachment is secured they try to collect additional sources of love and adoration. sex is a tool they use to manipulate objects and once an object is secured there is little motivation to keep trying to secure it. in fact, i believe they gain confidence from testing and confirming the attachment through inflicting emotional harm––proving that the attachment is secure enough and allowing them to take it for granted and seek new ones. they are afraid of true intimacy and do things to keep you attached on the one hand, yet holding you at arm's length on the other, afraid to let anyone inside the defensive shell which obscures the lack of substance inside. for them, multiple superficial attachments, or the illusion of being desired, are preferable to one truly intimate, committed relationship. integrity is just not part of their character. they create separate imaginary realities for each object and embellish it with lies and declarations of sincerity that in a sense they even come to believe themselves.

anyway, i think you need to work with your therapist and come to the understanding that this was not your fault, that you can heal and be happy and fulfilled again, and that she is will be stuck in the cycle for life. nothing you might have done would change the fact that hpds do not have reciprocal relationships and cannot experience love and intimacy in a way that even comes close. the best they can do is simulate it briefly over and over again.

Donlimpio,

My deepest sympathies to the pain and loss you are going through. It is not easy, but just remember this pain will not last forever. You actually stand a good chance of coming out of this a much better person. Your doing a good thing by working with your therapist, and I would highly recommend adding exercise to your routine. Those natural endorphins are priceless in hard times...

Let's face it, being with an HPD is absolutely exhausting on so many levels. They take up a vast majority of our time. We soon stop seeing friends and loved ones as much, we work longer hours to support their financial irresponsibilities, and we settle for table scraps from them when we damn well deserve a gourmet feast! When we finally kick them out or they leave us, we are left with an incredible emotional void. It soon after becomes glaringly obvious that we put our whole emotional core around them and their crazy world.

As a result, we literally have to rebuild ourselves from the ground up. In my opinion, now is not the time for you to be out there dating. This is a time of healing, of rebuilding, and understanding who you are and what you really want...

HPD's are very clever at manipulation. To the point where they subtley blameshift and turn all of their own miseries and transfer it to us. They are so good at claiming it is our fault that we beleieve them. After all were supposed to trust our partner riight? They utilize this and twist it. They are very skilled at knocking away our boundaries. We become almost 'trained' to let them. It is a vicious cycle and it just wreaks of our codependency. You need to really address your codependent issues with your therapist. This part alone has helped me immensly

One word about making it all your fault...My HPD had me thinking the 'if only' I shoulda, woulda, coulda's to the point where I was thinking it was all my fault. I took her back once because of this faulty thinking and all that served to do in the end was to give her yet another opportunity to crush my soul. DON'T DRINK HER KOOL-AID!!! She is responsible for her behavior, NOT YOU!

Look it is natural in the grief process to do this a lil bit, but when getting over an HPD relationship it is just plain toxic for you. She sabotaged this relationship and your goodwill and don't EVER forget that. You owe it to yourself to NEVER allow anyone to treat you like that again. Once you get a handle on your codependent ways, the less likely a predator like HPD will be in your world. They don't like people they cannot manipulate and they don't respect people they can...

We are giving people and have much to offer, the tragedy here is we offered our gifts to people who are so broken they only know how to drain it

For now try to live in the moment and slowly rebuild. Work on your own inner stuff and get your health back. Like any good farmer, we must till the ground until the soil is rich before we begin planting...

We are good people and we deserve the best. In order to do that we MUST learn first what it really means to be good to ourselves

blessings
MW

To all: thanks for the warm and informative replies. I'll post more when I get out of work, but there seems to be very valuable advice for me here.

Thanks.

Alright. Time for some feedback. And once again, thank you for your words. They mean more to me than you might know, as I'm really going through some dark days right now. I'm going to try and respond to your posts in the order that you've replied to me (which is probably worth a lot more to me - straightening out my thoughts - than to you).

BUT FIRST!!! A Disclaimer !!!
1) I'm aware that I'm contradicting myself constantly. This is a truthful reflection of my (self-)doubt at the moment so I've let all the contradictions in, no editing.
2) Also, I probably repeat a lot of the things I said elsewhere. I hope this is not too frustrating for you. Truth be told, I don't know what else to do but post here. It ain't nice, but it's real...
3) I know I'm not following the advice that I give to others. It's just so much easier to read someone else's story and reply with the stock (but sincere) "Run, don't walk", than it is to get to the truth myself. I dream of being able to say "It could NEVER have worked" and be really convinced, because that would mean I didn't lose anything, except for time (but gotten a lot wiser in return). At the moment I'm feeling more as if even the slightest chance of it having worked would mean that I've lost the greatest thing ever, and I'll never be able to forgive myself...
4) I'm aware that writing about "the greatest woman ever" does seem to eclipse the fact that she was very demanding and high maintenance, often depressed, very leisurely and irresponsible and, oh yeah, did I mention that she cheated on me two months after buying a house together, and was completely devoid of any empathy about it?
5) Sooner or later I will have to stop using over-charged words like "greatest", "ever", "never", "forgive" and "myself" or I'll go mad.
6) Long post ahead. Full of contradiction, instability, selfpity and more. Be warned.

To RidingTheTide:
I wasn't aware I was writing about sex so much, but it doesn't surprise me. The 'sexual' thing really hurts me a lot, among other things. But I want to make something clear about myself, since I'm thinking you might get the wrong impression of me: I am ALL about love first, and I only know sex as part of a loving relationship. I really don't have/like one night stands because I don't feel comfortable making love to someone that I don't know through and through and have come to love. Sometimes I wish it was different, but it's the way I am.

When you said "...sex. I know, men just have to have it" all I could think was: well, I loved her so much that I respected her limits (she told me she had a problem with sex because she'd been abused sexually several times) and waited for months on end over a period of two years, that I made it a personal task NOT to pressure her and to wait patiently. I also kept reassuring her that she needn't be worried that I would go and 'look for it elsewhere'. That's just the way I was raised. You NEVER force yourself on a woman, and if she has hangups or hurtful issues then you take every precaution to make sure that she has the time to find safety and balance with you. And that's what I did.

And after a year of that she jumps every man she sees, and she tells me that I wasn't aggressive enough, not dominating enough... Mind you, if i DID try to initiate some physical intimacy that wasn't okay either because she felt that it would lead to more... You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't I guess... But it does bug me that at times her healthy sex drive returned and often I wouldn't respond as I wished I had, and I just don't understand WHY. I loved her, I missed her, I wanted and needed sooo much to be close to her, but often I would turn HER down in return, and I'm really disappointed in myself because sometimes I could feel that I sort of did it to make her feel how she hurt me by not wanting to be intimate with me.. Stupid me... Turning her down like a stubborn child, hurt in my pride, instead of communicating with the woman I love... Like I said - and I know you tell me to stop beating myself up - I can't seem to forgive myself for being partly to blame for letting our relationship turn into a life without passion and intimacy; brother and sister, instead of lovers... Why did I do that? My god... It's only dawning on me now how guilty I feel for the demise of us... I am really really terrified that I drove her away... She was so sweet sometimes.

I'm afraid I'm driving you nuts with my wining, and I apologise. I can't keep on doing this, I know... And of course you will respond with "that's how HPDs work, donlimpio", but sometimes I think that's just because this happens to be the HPD forum - that taints your perception of her greatly. I wish I could travel the world, sit down with all of you and talk in depth about this, because it is often so two-sided. Yes, she cheated with a lot of extreme sex, after withholding it from me for a long time, but of course she had reasons for withholding, and maybe they were true. And maybe she just needed to get out of her dependency to me by breaking up HARD. Grrrrmbl. I hate this. I used to be so strong and wellcomposed and now I'm just falling apart

And I know that I will NEVER meet anyone like her again... Well, that's a red flag in itself: I'll never meet anyone who, like her, was like a movie-star, a rockstar or a princess, in real life.. Once again, everything has become so complicated: it was sooo wonderful to be around her, her rock-and-roll rebel attitude, her child-like freespiritedness... But then again, I had to pick up all the slack and do her work, so she would have the time to be 'free' and 'wild'. On some level I realise that she was, in all probability, impossible to live with, like a heroine addiction, but keeping the metaphor: boy did it feel great... Maybe it just sucks soooo hard that a HPD shows you how insanely wonderful life with her could be, but does not give it to you (or not exclusively), or makes it impossible to live with her...

Speaking of good women. Why do so many (non HPD) women take their good man for granted, go look for the more exciting "bad boy"-type that's obviously an abuser, and then cry out "where have all the good men gone"?

Okay.... Next.

To Santa Fe:
Wow. Incredible post. You and I are on the same level somewhat, at least regarding the balance you strike between emotions and science/psychology. I like that. Hopefully I'll be a bit better someday and be able to converse like that again. By the way, be as direct as you possibly can. I can take it, and I know that sometimes it takes tough love more than anything else.

Good point about irrational beliefs and cyclical thinking and emoting. Very much related to something I once said about positive learning vs. negative learning (also very interesting stuff - my therapist has me working on saying, thinking and acting the same thing - seems I do one thing, say another and think yet another thing). I do, almost literally, say to myself: since I gave and did everything and received worse than nothing, I must be worth $#%^. Pardon my french. That's how bad I feel.

On the other hand this phrase:
"if I had given just a little bit more or been a little bit better or different in some way, she would have loved me, treated me well, been faithful, made a wonderful spouse, mother and life partner."
is a bit of an eye-opener, in that it shows the absurdity of crying over having lost the "sweetest gentlest lover in the world", who is now snorting coke and screwing strangers in nightclub-bathrooms, at 29 years of age. Not really mother and wife material eh?

Interesting paragraph about hormones that stimulate strong bonding urges. I've always LIVED for my partner and for life with my partner. In fact, I have NEVER once initiated a break-up, staying together even in relationships that I was no longer convinced of. I know this touches other important issues (abandonment issues, codependency etc - plenty of subject matter for therapy) but it does give me hope and something to look forward to that I do possess a lot of desirable traits when it comes to maintaining a healthy relationship. Two of my former lovers have, come to think of it, years after we ended our relationship, admitted that they spent a really long time thinking how they would have loved to stay together with me, and still do sometimes now, even well into their new relationships. This gives my confidence about how I probably was a good partner in this relationship, after all. Mind you, at the time both of 'em thought the grass might be greener on the other side! They never cheated on me though. What a difference a respectful and clean breakup is. It still hurts like hell, but you can work your way through and you know it.

Your next paragraph about gaining confidence from testing. I literally told my ex even when we were still happy together, that I sometimes felt "tested", almost as if she needed to do 'bad things' to see if I would still stick around, in order to feel really safe that I would never leave her. I always chalked these down to her dependency and fear of abandonment, not to securing supply. I always DID endure her tests. Guess I just gave her affirmation that she could do whatever she wanted, and I'd stick around anyway. You also mention that HPDs create separate realities for each object. I often wondered how she could hang with the superficial emotionless yuppie-night club crowd and really blend in with the rich kids, and at the same time hang with the drum-circle hippies and not feel like a sham.

And on to your last paragraph, which touches on my greatest doubt: you say that nothing I would have done could change the fact that HPDs do not have reciprocal relationships etc.. Correct, and I follow you 100 percent. But the big catch is: yes, HPDs are like that. But I don't know if she IS a HPD... There's lots of red flags, that's for sure, and somehow if I'm reaaaaaally honest I have to say that I've seen all along that there was something a little off about her (yes, even besides the psych wards, the heroine at 13 years old, her reputation as the town tramp, the 10 year drug addiction ). But for the moment I'm so unstable that I sometimes think that maybe I'm just looking for an excuse for my driving her away... We having a saying here about throwing the dart first, and THEN moving the darts board so the dart is in the center, and that's what I fear sometimes. That I'm looking for a satisfactory explanation just so I can relieve myself of guilt or blame... Sigh. The mind boggles. On one hand I'm sure as hell, on the other I'm as unsure as I could be...

Thanks for your post mate, I'll be re-reading this one very often. And then, going for the longest post ever,

To MyWave:
Exercise! Got it. Got my running shoes but haven't started running yet. I can use ALL the help to survive right now, so those endorphins are more than welcome. Good idea.

Your words resonate with what I feel a great deal... It's just all so recognisable... Yes, it is SO exhausting to live with them... And even the breakup is exhausting. It's just one big rollercoaster, what with all the blameshifting and gaslighting, and the fact that in the emotional realm, you never have 100 percent scientific proof. It's more conviction than proof. The nasty thing is that the way you feel it was, is actually the really convoluted explanation for things, and the explanation where you blame the other for, well, let's be honest, practically EVERYTHING, while most of us victims tend to NOT want to put the blame on partners, preferring to see relationships as shared responsibilities (as they should be). Sigh... At least there won't be any more soul-crushing by her: she's completely convinced that I'm to blame and she hates my guts and has moved on without so much as the blink of an eye (after three years, another red flag if you ask me: 'real' people feel the burn when they get out of a yearlong relationship, even if they firmly decide to quit it themselves). As we speak she is partying the night away as she does 3 times a week.

I've ordered the 'emotional vampires' book, hopefully it'll be here soon! And yeah, there is a LOT of work rebuilding myself.

Okay, I'm a bit shorter now since I've written so much in reply to the previous two posts but all three of you have helped me move forward in your own ways. Thanks A LOT for that. You are making a change here, albeit in frustratingly small steps.

And thanks for reading.
Goodnight, Godbless

Donlimpio (causing a spike in internet traffic all by himself through writing such lenghty posts)

don,

I'm not as eloquent as you are, but my experience with my HPD , and my thoughts about it are 100 % the same..........

The thoughts you're having about it are the same too. And I do think her love was sometimes almost real..........

But when I saw her try to "win me back", and when I saw her
chase a new guy..........there was no mistake............she can turn on the charm and she can turn it off................same with their love, joy, sex...................they control ..............they decide............or they withdraw and pout............

Even my occasional thinking that maybe she wasn't completely HPD and NPD and maybe I should have given her another chance because she was the most beautiful and wildly exciting girl I would ever know.................

But like you I realize like you how bad she was, bad, bad, bad..........

I can tell you that mine straightened up, begged me, etc. to stay only to change back into the heartless girl again.............

So HOLD YOUR HEAD UP......IT IS THEIR LOSS..............

YOU WILL FIND A BETTER LOVE SOMEDAY.............

NMAYBE NOT AS WILD, BUT REAL, REAL LOVE...........

I DID, 5 YEARS LATER..........

Hi Don, I read your first post, and my thoughts were "gee, you sure give a lot of your own power over to someone else", but I didn't say anything, in case it came across as rude, and I see you have had some really good replies from others, then I scanned your later post and my eyes fixed on the following :

donlimpio wrote:I've always LIVED for my partner

To which I reply, "Start living for YOURSELF."

Know what you want out of a relationship and believe enough in yourself to acknowledge that you deserve, trust, respect, compassion etc., if you don't, you run the risk of elevating a relationship on a pedestal (making it a fantasy) and setting yourself up for disappointment.

good luck with your therapy and healing.....cheers

Hey Don & Miss Shivers,

I think Don has tendencies like I had also. I think he's too romantic, idealistic, heck.....too nice.............and co-dependent.


Don, have you seen Forrest Gump ?

You and I are a bit like Forrest................

And our HPD's are like Jenny...............

Hey Shivers, don't hold back because you think something is rude. Most of us are grownups and can take it. Besides, I'm here to learn because i really DO feel there need to be some serious changes in my life.

Where you say your first though was "gee, you sure give a lot of your own power over to someone else", how exactly do you mean that? Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not asking because I disagree, in fact I'm asking because I DO agree. But I guess it is only more significant that I don't even have a clue why you would think that, based on what I wrote.

Wisernow, yeah, I'm definitely very romantic, idealistic (aiming for very high principles in relationships - which are not often reciprocated) and codependent. And toss in dependent, while we're at it - this is a tricky one, because I'm very selfsupporting financially, I'm talented, I'm pretty social (well, before the HPD encounter I was) etc.. but emotionally I'm sort of dependent. Can't really put my finger on it, because I can also live alone REALLY well.. Confusing stuff.

I'm digging the Forrest Gump comparison, but I'm hoping it's not completely like that, because I would find it really unfair if my Jenny would find a place in the end where once again someone would take care of her after she screwed up her own life. It just feels really wrong that some people live their lives so irresponsibly, hurting and destroying so much along the way through their selfish desires, and still always manage to find a resting place with yet another naive caring soul time after time..

Well, since I'm single again, and not up to starting a new thing (even if I wanted to), I have no other option but to start living for myself again. And boy have I got room for improvement there! Eating right, sports, social activities, cleaning up my not so good finances (I earn enough to fix this in six months, but the past years have drained my resources).

Oh well. Firmly looking forward, right? Can't wait to find real, mature, reciprocal adult love though. I feel as if I've lived with two childlike partners for 8 years... (I actually do not recognize the way adult women relate to me - they're so mature! )