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When NPD causes too much pain to HPD: how can I stop it?

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When NPD causes too much pain to HPD: how can I stop it?

Postby MrErwin » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:10 pm


My first post here. I met a girl two months ago and I’m *not* here to ask how to get her, how to forget her or how to heal after her. Instead, I’d appreciate some help on how I could stop making her suffer so much and I have a few specific questions if you don’t mind.

Little background:
Me and this girl met two months ago at the place where she works and where I spend two or three hours every day for leisure. I’ve only known about NPD, HPD and so on for two days now, but on the other hand me and her have unconsciously played a major push-pull game every day for two months. It has been a bloodbath and think the pain I’ve caused to her is much more that the pain she caused to me. And now I actually feel bad about it.

I’ve taken quite a lot of personality tests in the last two days, and they all seem to agree that I’m ESTJ, high in NPD, moderate in OCD, AsPD and HPD. The OCD is no news to me, and I’ve actually taken major steps some time back to limit some compulsive behaviours that I had developed and were actually draining me. The NPD makes sense thinking about it. Concerning the AsPD, I would never be able to harm people for my personal benefit, I believe in rules and I am totally against lying and cheating; but at the same time, I don’t have much empathy and if someone tries to hurt me or manipulate me, I make sure they get punished for it. Some salesmen really make me laugh as I can see so easily the manipulating techniques that they attempt to use on me that I wonder why they even bother in the first place (I guess they work with the other customers).

From what I’ve seen and what I’ve read, she looks definitely HPD to me, but a mild version I would say. Spending so much time with her, observing her around other people and looking at her Instagram, she seems a good and considerate girl (I may be completely wrong). Not a party girl but rather a girl that goes hiking on mountains, canoeing in a lake, sightseeing villages around the city and so on. On Instagram she has many photos with female friends but very few photos with men. She seems to behave in a flirty way only with me at her workplace and I have the clear feeling that everything she does there is for my benefit, as if she has to demonstrate something to me (she seems to be acting all the time while doing this). When she gets the chance, she uses other males to get my attention just by being next to them (she’s never flirty with them) and she does not do that in a proactive way, but rather only when she gets the chance by coincidence. I can read her and her intentions extremely well (or at least so I think) so when she does that, I’m not mad or jealous but rather I go “look at what this cute little girl does to get my attention”. She has never created any drama and she tries to get attention from other people (not me) simply by positioning herself where they can see her, but she lacks the sensual traits while she does that.

Our interaction:
The push-pull dynamic over the course of two months has been the following and we have repeated this cycle three times, every time more intense.
My pull: I charm her
Her pull: she acts sensual and seductive, tempting me to ask her out
Her push: she rejects my romantic advance
My push: I ignore her completely while giving extra attention to all the other people next to her

My evolution in the two months: pretty stable, just getting better at charming her and harsher at punishing her every time

Her evolution in the two months: night and day, I would say.
Phase 1: from the moment we first met my instinct was telling me she had a crush on me, but there were things that were new to me and I couldn’t understand. Every time we were talking face to face in proximity of each other, she gave me the clear impression she could not stand me, she was very uncomfortable being next to me and she had no pleasure at all in talking to me as if I was deeply bothering her (not what you would expect from a member of the staff). Every time we crossed paths without actually talking, she would reply to my warm smile with the fakest smile I have ever seen in my life, and she had a sort of “I hate you” expression in her face. Her body language was never submissive (especially the eyes), not what you expect from a girl with a crush on you. The first time we were alone she tried to seduce me with very sensual moves, I immediately asked her out and she rejected me. I think she was not expecting such a quick move, her voice and body language while rejecting me were very uncomfortable. Two strange things: first, I could see she was being fake while rejecting me, as to tell me “try harder”; second, while the girls that rejected me in the past because they wanted nothing to do with me were actually bothered by my romantic advance and displayed embarrassment or closed body language afterwards, she was displaying an extremely open body language while I was going away and she put herself on display as to say “look at me”.

Phase 2:
After rejecting me for the first time she changed. She would still do her best never to be face to face to me, but every time I passed by her while she was working behind a computer screen (there was a “barrier” between us), she would greet me with the sweetest and babyest voice I’ve heard from an adult, eyes straight on the monitor, with a baby expression on her face. She seemed extremely happy. I went to talk to her twice while she was not behind the computer screen and both times her voice was girlish and extremely high pitched, happy but frightened at the same time, never looking at me but always pointing the floor with eyes wide open. I started to think of her a child trapped in an adult body.
For three times during this phase, while we were close but not to close that I could talk to her, she smiled at me sweetly and when I smiled back every single time she looked away with a frightened/worried expression in her face. As of now I still cannot understand this.
The second time she rejected me in a very different way. She was no longer uncomfortable, her voice was calm, babyish and sweet, she was pronouncing words very slowing as she was making up an excuse for rejecting me and her eyes were rambling around in the process. But she did say something true at the end while looking me straight in the eyes: she would have been happy to talk to me at the workplace, even if she could not go out with me for blablabla reason. Since I thought she wanted to simply put me in the friendzone, I rejected the offer. While I was going away, I noticed that see she was so happy for having rejected me that she could barely hide all that happiness.

Phase 3:
I’m not proud to say that I made her suffer quite a lot after the second rejection as I thought she was leading me on while having a laugh at my expenses. But I didn’t know anything about HPD at the time, and now I actually feel terrible about it. Anyway, she did her best to reconnect to me and since she seemed sincere and she was not using seduction or sensuality to achieve the purpose, I started to give her some attention back. There was extreme relief in her eyes when she realized that I was greeting her again every time we met. She evolved again. She now had taken some form of confidence and every single time she was doing something while I was there, it was like a show to my benefit. As if she had to demonstrate something to me so that I could think that she was at my same level. She would look at me in the eyes as to challenge me, acting a bit aloof and a bit superior at times, and displaying the best that her wardrobe has to offer. She would find excuses to be at the workplace during the day off so that I can see her dressed to the nine. No shade of a doubt: she was really trying to impress me and to prove something to me.

Phase 4:
I don’t know for sure what triggered this latest evolution. I can think that one day we talked, and I told her I would be gone from her workplace soon. And she finally started to behave as a girl who has a crush on me, with the typical body language like looking down while smiling when I went in her direction, dear eyes, etc. She was so happy that it was unbelievable. It may have been camouflage but I don’t think so. In Phase 3 she was always keeping an eye on me to check if I was looking at her show (I know this thanks to my use of peripherical vision, I actually never looked directly). In Phase 4 she was always looking at me but with an expression of adoration, looking away as I was slowly turning my head towards her. We reached the point where she would burst of joy when she saw me for the first time in the day, in such a way that only a little girl can do. When talking in close proximity, the expression of adoration in her eyes was unmistakable.
She then proceeded to reject me for the third time, same calm, sweet and baby voice, eyes rambling while she was making up an excuse. And then she said the same thing looking me in the eyes: she would have been happy to talk to me there, and she asked me how much longer I would have continued to go at her workplace (second time she asked this question in short time).

This is it. After leaning about HPD my recollections started to make much more sense to me. After the three rejections I moved on completely (because of my NPD I think) and my main objective right now is not how to get her. I feel sad for the way I made a little girl suffer and I would like to make it up for it.

I’d appreciate it if you can help me with the following:

Does she sound HPD to you?

What do you think she wants from me? Maybe some form of protection/emotional support? Maybe new opportunities to feel desired when I ask her out combined with the joy of rejecting me? Maybe a relationship after I stop going there? Maybe she likes the pain she feels in the punish phase (I don’t think so and I hope not)?

Why does she keep seducing me if she now knows that after the rejection, I will make her suffer?

Why was she looking away frightened/worried after I smiled back at her?

Thank you so much
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Re: When NPD causes too much pain to HPD: how can I stop it?

Postby xdude » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:39 am

We'd be guessing re: does she have HPD? We aren't qualified to diagnose, but the reason I approved your post here is this -

Most of what you wrote is about the classic cluster B dynamics, including the self-esteem games and pushing others away as a mean to gain/keep their greater interest. It's definitely not kind, but it does work. From what you wrote that she might have a cluster B personality, so is especially attracted to those dynamics.

Ok so this may seem a bit sexist, not PC, but males and females tend to get rewarded for different behaviors in life. It's why cluster B males tend to end up the NPD or AsPD side of the scale, females on the HPD or BPD side. I do think NPD/HPD shares much in common, but the professionals may tend to see them as different, and yea one difference is odds are she has is going to feel hurt before you do.

No doubt you do have cognitive empathy. If so, the best suggestion I think is just stop hurting her. The past is the past. See what happens. Cluster B types can also have great relationships when they are focused on getting along.
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Re: When NPD causes too much pain to HPD: how can I stop it?

Postby whiteflag » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:15 pm

It seems you hurted her but believe me, in the end it's you who it's gonna be hurted.
Normally only an AsPD can hurt an HPD. NPDs they do hurt HPDs in the beginning, but let's see who stands in the end!
Do not feel bad about your behaviour, she is already very well equipped to cope.
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Re: When NPD causes too much pain to HPD: how can I stop it?

Postby MrErwin » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:12 pm

The advice and the useful information on this forum are both invaluable. Since I first posted, I read many many threads dating as far back as 2005. There have been different generations of “aware survivors”, but the conclusions they reached and the advice they provided has always been the same. I’ll summarise the most important message in one sentence:

you cannot have a successful relationship with an untreated HPD, the best thing you can do for your own good is to protect yourself and run (I prefer to think of “walking away”).

I’ll go into the specifics of my situation just to convince any doubtful people left. Thanks to the information I found on the forum, I was able to identify the girl as a theatrical HPD, with maybe some signs of co-dependency as well. One of the most “innocuous” subtypes: never perceived any evil intentions behind her actions, certainly not a drama queen, not a manic AW, seems to have some long-standing female friends she relies on, does not have a fun club to be used and abused, etc. She seems a very good and normal girl to the unaware observer. But as a target in the idealization phase, I got the theatrical seductive poses, the childlike high-pitched voice, the look of adoration in her eyes, the one way communication, the one way direction of every interaction, the flighty and superficial behavior, the mischievous attitude, the constant lying every time she rejected me, the joy she could barely mask when seeing me taken aback after the rejection, and at times the hostile, bossy and aloof behavior that was possibly the way her mother used to treat her father. She has some pictures with her mother were they both wear the same aloof look (pretty frightening tbh), and some pictures with her father with a love declaration in the comment section which is pretty much the same as the one shown in this post:
Also, I understand that the HPD population seems to be split in two opposite groups concerning the sex sphere: some of them are extremely promiscuous, the others have problem with intimacy. I think she is in the second group. As innocuous and as mild as it can get I think, but still…

Following the very reasonable advice from xdude, I stopped hurting her intentionally to see what happened. Once I removed the charming and the challenge element, and I started being warm and cordial towards her in more “normal” ways, she started to behave as a sad and withdrawn little kid. I could feel that the pain she was feeling was real, it was not a façade. It hurt me greatly to see that. For you to have an idea of the situation, you have to imagine a child that on Christmas day wakes up only to realise that there are gifts for everyone but her. The fact is, as soon as I tried to get just a bit closer and display just a bit more of affection towards her, she would somehow regain confidence and she would attempt to play the part of the desired girl who runs away. There was no learning curve, no hope of having some normal-resembling interactions. I decided to walk away. I cannot save her.

Another reflection: I left my home town a very long time ago and every single time I go back to visit my parents (3 or 4 times a year) my mother is extremely sad and cries the day I have to leave. She tries not to, but she cannot help it. It has been like this for the past 15 years. I’m not happy to see my mother cry for me, but somehow it still gives me the feeling of being loved by her (this was an unconscious thought process until I started investigating HPD). The girl I’m talking about has never had that kind of love in her life, and now I better understand why she was so happy to see my disappointment every time she rejected me. She wants to be loved and she needs to test this love. As other posters already explained, she will need to test that love over and over again, and this can only be done triggering negative emotions on the person that cares about her. Seriously, who wants to live through that??

Once you get the mechanisms, it is very simple to understand and predict the HPD behavior and actions. And if you think about it logically, it is also very simple to understand that the relationship will never work because of the HPD paradox:
1- they want a mother-figure, who will love them always and unconditionally, and take care of them without expecting reciprocity;
2- they want to bind this person to them by entering into a "relationship" so she will be always there for them;
3- they must have constant novelty and attention, and will not tolerate any limits being placed on their behavior (as in the limits inherent in a relationship).

Recommended readings:

One of the many posts explaining why a fulfilling relationship with untreated HPD is not possible (the OP confuses a relationship with the initial seduction, but the other posters are spot on):

How that HPD views you (you are a disposable object, only a source of supply):

“Time” does not exist for HPD, meaning that you can be together for one day or 20 years, but she will not be able to develop any emotional attachment to you and you will be discarded once her supply needs are no longer met:

The TK relationship seemed to be the only exception because TK actually managed to make it work somehow, until it collapsed like all the other HPD relationships:

So from a logical standpoint it is really a no brainer to walk away. If you cannot let it go and you are somehow still thinking “she is different”, “maybe I can save her”, “she only has a mild form”, “maybe she will change”, “I am special for her”…the cause is that you have not yet developed abundance mentality and you are still in a place of neediness when it comes to seduction. It’s a oneitis with a twist, in so that you are projecting your emotional needs on a girl that you idealise (typical oneitis) but in the case of the HPD she actually reflects them back to you, while a normal girl would simply not reciprocate your interest. To get over the oneitis and develop abundance mentality you are best served on seduction websites/forums.

Very recently I read a post on SoSuave by the user captainkirkz, very enlighting. It explains how with an HPD you end up being a surrogate parent in addition to being a lover. You have a lover that idolizes you and defenseless child that needs your protection. This feels great as long as it lasts, but when the devaluation phase arrives (and it does arrive, there are hundreds of stories on this website leading all to the same conclusion and not a single satisfying long term relationship) you not only lose what you though was the love of your life, you also lose one of your children. If you like me have ever seen the look of adoration in the eyes of the HPD, if you have ever listened to the childlike high-pitched voice, you know that the idea of “losing a child” is exactly what is at stake when the discard phase arrives. Nexting a girl is no problem to me, but losing a child is a completely different thing. And since right now I see her more as a little daughter than a future girlfriend, I decided to go NC and walk away. I explained to her that she is HPD, but I doubt she will seek professional help.

If you have any questions please let me know.
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