[b]I won't lose this game![/b]

It's a game, start showering your affection on someone else visibly so that she becomes jealous, and she'll come back to you.
After that, it's all about doling out affection slowly - once she has you at the stage where you're at her beck and call she'll never respect you and her flightiness will lead her to find someone else.

insincerity wrote:It's a game, start showering your affection on someone else visibly so that she becomes jealous, and she'll come back to you.
After that, it's all about doling out affection slowly - once she has you at the stage where you're at her beck and call she'll never respect you and her flightiness will lead her to find someone else.

OK, now i understand your username. What a deep and meaningful life you must have.

Bam wrote:

insincerity wrote:It's a game, start showering your affection on someone else visibly so that she becomes jealous, and she'll come back to you.
After that, it's all about doling out affection slowly - once she has you at the stage where you're at her beck and call she'll never respect you and her flightiness will lead her to find someone else.

OK, now i understand your username. What a deep and meaningful life you must have.

Since when has life needed to be deep and meaningful? I'm in my 20s, in college, and a psychopath, all of which aren't very conducive to looking for "depth" in a relationship. At least I'm not parading my bitterness all over the internet because I was damaged by someone with HPD. Even sadder, I'm probably a better person than you (which is very sad when you consider I'm a psychopath), given that I don't focus all my rage on hurting someone to get revenge for something they pathologically couldn't help doing. It's not your partners fault he has HPD and there was never anything he could have done about it, as their incapable of doing anything else. I can't see how you can criticize the shallowness of my life when you're a person who's trying to harm someone for doing something they couldn't help.

insincerity wrote:

Bam wrote:

insincerity wrote:It's a game, start showering your affection on someone else visibly so that she becomes jealous, and she'll come back to you.
After that, it's all about doling out affection slowly - once she has you at the stage where you're at her beck and call she'll never respect you and her flightiness will lead her to find someone else.

OK, now i understand your username. What a deep and meaningful life you must have.

Since when has life needed to be deep and meaningful? I'm in my 20s, in college, and a psychopath, all of which aren't very conducive to looking for "depth" in a relationship. At least I'm not parading my bitterness all over the internet because I was damaged by someone with HPD. Even sadder, I'm probably a better person than you (which is very sad when you consider I'm a psychopath), given that I don't focus all my rage on hurting someone to get revenge for something they pathologically couldn't help doing. It's not your partners fault he has HPD and there was never anything he could have done about it, as their incapable of doing anything else. I can't see how you can criticize the shallowness of my life when you're a person who's trying to harm someone for doing something they couldn't help.

lol insincerity - your a funny guy and i mean you no malicious intent! Just a few things tho - i am not 'parading my bitterness' - Im using this forum as an opportunity to work through my feelings and express sorrow and hurt resulting from a totally unexpectedly HPD man. Life does not NEED to be deep and meaningful but personally, thats where i source my oun personal satisfaction from. To me, life is about connections and relationships - we are meaning making beings (well most of us lol) and that is how we enable ourselves to function on in this illogical and f**ked up world that has (to me) its priorities twisted out of shape.

I can respect that you are 20 - ahhh, i remember back then too (Im 37) and i guess i'ld be a liar if i said i wasnt sometimes (lol) devious then.
I have a slight problem with this quote from you 'I'm probably a better person than you (which is very sad when you consider I'm a psychopath), given that I don't focus all my rage on hurting someone to get revenge for something they pathologically couldn't help doing.' and for a few reasons...here goes....firstly what an assumption to make against a complete stranger whom you assume knowing thru reading a few posts which are only one aspect of her life....interesting Insincerity, interesting, 2ndly I am over rage I just want to tip back the balance of fair and i would not assume that it comes with the requisite of my entire focus...also, altho i agree that one cannot 'help' having a PD, i do believe that one can help the way they deal with it and choose to be deceitful or not...dont tell me he doesnt know on some level that lying, deceiving and manipulating is not the best basis for a relationship - or for a marriage. If he thinks otherwise, why go to such extents to hide evidence, to try so hard to make me believe the lies? One last thing - i think i am more full of fascination than rage - there is hurt, yes, for sure, but i am still attempting to get my head around it all. BTW - speaking about revenge - didnt I originally comment on YOUR advise on helping someone else get revenge?? Considering what you have written to me, thats rather ironic and quite funny!

Bam wrote:
lol insincerity - your a funny guy and i mean you no malicious intent! Just a few things tho - i am not 'parading my bitterness' - Im using this forum as an opportunity to work through my feelings and express sorrow and hurt resulting from a totally unexpectedly HPD man. Life does not NEED to be deep and meaningful but personally, thats where i source my oun personal satisfaction from. To me, life is about connections and relationships - we are meaning making beings (well most of us lol) and that is how we enable ourselves to function on in this illogical and f**ked up world that has (to me) its priorities twisted out of shape.

I can respect that you are 20 - ahhh, i remember back then too (Im 37) and i guess i'ld be a liar if i said i wasnt sometimes (lol) devious then.
I have a slight problem with this quote from you 'I'm probably a better person than you (which is very sad when you consider I'm a psychopath), given that I don't focus all my rage on hurting someone to get revenge for something they pathologically couldn't help doing.' and for a few reasons...here goes....firstly what an assumption to make against a complete stranger whom you assume knowing thru reading a few posts which are only one aspect of her life....interesting Insincerity, interesting, 2ndly I am over rage I just want to tip back the balance of fair and i would not assume that it comes with the requisite of my entire focus...also, altho i agree that one cannot 'help' having a PD, i do believe that one can help the way they deal with it and choose to be deceitful or not...dont tell me he doesnt know on some level that lying, deceiving and manipulating is not the best basis for a relationship - or for a marriage. If he thinks otherwise, why go to such extents to hide evidence, to try so hard to make me believe the lies? One last thing - i think i am more full of fascination than rage - there is hurt, yes, for sure, but i am still attempting to get my head around it all. BTW - speaking about revenge - didnt I originally comment on YOUR advise on helping someone else get revenge?? Considering what you have written to me, thats rather ironic and quite funny!

I respect that you want revenge, it's a natural thing, something even I can feel. However, I'm just pointing out that while you completely justified in wanting revenge against someone with HPD for hurting you, if you go through with it, you're a far worse person than your ex-partner, since they couldn't help what they did whereas you most definitely could.

And I've analyzed my partner a lot, mainly because her games are completely transparent to me, and I've come to the conclusion that the only way people with HPD can understand what they are doing is in hindsight - they're learned specific methods of getting attention and these have become ingrained into their behavior permanently because they've learned that they work. They don't think about why they lie, they lie to find "the path of least resistance" where they fulfill their needs with everyone still liking them and giving them attention. They lie and cover up their lies naturally because they want everyone to believe the masks they polish and show to the world in a desperate attempt to get everyone to favor them. While your partner probably knows "on some level" that what he does is wrong, even if he does, he can't actually help it - it's as natural to him as breathing.

I find them fascinating as well, partially because some aspects of their behavior are very similar to that of psychopaths.

insecurity is right about the lying part. Also its probably true that in some ways HPDs are "mild" psychopaths, except that some of their behavior is on the other end of the spectrum - they are neurotic and hence easily anxious and on an emotional overdrive.

On the issue of revenge though I have a different take:

1. I don't think the diagnosis of an HPD (or any such diagnosis) should be used to justify behavior and say that they can't help it and so they do it. Even normal people have desires and impulses that are not always good, and yet normal people control their ACTIONS, with regard for the consequences to themselves and others. HPDs (and other Cluster Bs), in response to their desires and impulses, don't think about consequences and control their ACTIONS, simply because they have learnt that they can get away with the bad behavior, by exploiting the emotions of normal people, and see no reason to change this.

These diagnoses are mere psychological constructs to help understand - without the diagnoses, such people in everyday life would be considered "evil". One can argue whether their "evil" is deliberate or not, but it should not be used as an excuse. Unlike schizophrenia, where the person can't distinguish their abnormal behavior, HPDs can distinguish their bad behavior and actions from the good - this is the very reason why they put up the "good girl" mask, where they exhibit better-than-best behavior. However, they CHOOSE not to control their behavior and actions, simply because they don't need to - they have learnt that they can lie, manipulate, distort, deceive and get away with it. Hence its very important to hold them ACCOUNTABLE for their bad behavior and actions, and not let them get away with it.

If normals start educating themselves about the behavior of these disordered people and begin to recognize them early, stop enabling them and then hold them accountable, they will be forced to change their behavior, because without this change they will not be able to survive. Today these people are able to survive because of the lack of awareness of them in the normal population. Infact they survive by pitting normals against normals and playing the divide-and-control mechanism to the hilt

2. Revenge is sweet. But what is the purpose? If you are clear about what YOU will gain from this revenge, go ahead. Don't worry about being judged a worse person - just because you take revenge against a single disordered person, you don't become worse. The quality of you as a person is defined by how you act pervasively with people and especially with people who are good to you, not by one single incident or how you behave with a person who behaved badly with you. You can't apply the principles of normal "goodness" with a person who doesn't apply it himself.

I didn't take revenge on my X, simply because I didn't consider her worthy of so much of my effort, which I have invested in my own healing and seeking a better life for myself. I will not let a disordered person consume so much of my energy and effort, when I can use it for myself and my friends and family who mean so much more to me.

newtohpd wrote:insecurity is right about the lying part. Also its probably true that in some ways HPDs are "mild" psychopaths, except that some of their behavior is on the other end of the spectrum - they are neurotic and hence easily anxious and on an emotional overdrive.

On the issue of revenge though I have a different take:

1. I don't think the diagnosis of an HPD (or any such diagnosis) should be used to justify behavior and say that they can't help it and so they do it. Even normal people have desires and impulses that are not always good, and yet normal people control their ACTIONS, with regard for the consequences to themselves and others. HPDs (and other Cluster Bs), in response to their desires and impulses, don't think about consequences and control their ACTIONS, simply because they have learnt that they can get away with the bad behavior, by exploiting the emotions of normal people, and see no reason to change this.

These diagnoses are mere psychological constructs to help understand - without the diagnoses, such people in everyday life would be considered "evil". One can argue whether their "evil" is deliberate or not, but it should not be used as an excuse. Unlike schizophrenia, where the person can't distinguish their abnormal behavior, HPDs can distinguish their bad behavior and actions from the good - this is the very reason why they put up the "good girl" mask, where they exhibit better-than-best behavior. However, they CHOOSE not to control their behavior and actions, simply because they don't need to - they have learnt that they can lie, manipulate, distort, deceive and get away with it. Hence its very important to hold them ACCOUNTABLE for their bad behavior and actions, and not let them get away with it.

If normals start educating themselves about the behavior of these disordered people and begin to recognize them early, stop enabling them and then hold them accountable, they will be forced to change their behavior, because without this change they will not be able to survive. Today these people are able to survive because of the lack of awareness of them in the normal population. Infact they survive by pitting normals against normals and playing the divide-and-control mechanism to the hilt

2. Revenge is sweet. But what is the purpose? If you are clear about what YOU will gain from this revenge, go ahead. Don't worry about being judged a worse person - just because you take revenge against a single disordered person, you don't become worse. The quality of you as a person is defined by how you act pervasively with people and especially with people who are good to you, not by one single incident or how you behave with a person who behaved badly with you. You can't apply the principles of normal "goodness" with a person who doesn't apply it himself.

I didn't take revenge on my X, simply because I didn't consider her worthy of so much of my effort, which I have invested in my own healing and seeking a better life for myself. I will not let a disordered person consume so much of my energy and effort, when I can use it for myself and my friends and family who mean so much more to me.

I think you're wrong. Psychopaths, at least, don't learn from consequences because we are physically incapable of it - psychopathy is a change in your mental wiring that results, amongst other things, in a lack of the ability to feel fear and learn from (and internalize) consequences. This is why psychopathic criminals are the ones that are almost impossible to reintegrate into society. While people with HPD aren't necessarily the same, I think that the fact that they seem to never really learn from consequences (except for very specific ones) isn't just because society lets them get away with it but rather because they can't.

I think you're wrong. Psychopaths, at least, don't learn from consequences because we are physically incapable of it - psychopathy is a change in your mental wiring that results, amongst other things, in a lack of the ability to feel fear and learn from (and internalize) consequences. This is why psychopathic criminals are the ones that are almost impossible to reintegrate into society. While people with HPD aren't necessarily the same, I think that the fact that they seem to never really learn from consequences (except for very specific ones) isn't just because society lets them get away with it but rather because they can't.

I disagree on it being used as an excuse, while I agree on your content.

Yes, I am aware that the "wiring" is different. As I have written elsewhere on this forum, especially, the "wiring" in terms of the outer world feedback loop is impaired (empathy), resulting in the lack of ability to integrate this outside feedback and consequence with their internal world. This is why the understanding of the consequences are lacking. (In my previous post I wanted to keep it simple and avoid this kind of content). Again this "wiring" is also a psychological and behavioral construct to understand the thought process - there is a lot of debate on how much of it is reflected by "actual" neurological evidence.

However, not understanding consequences doesn't mean Cluster B's don't recognize their behavior as inappropriate. Many of them, especially the high-functioning ones are sufficiently intelligent to know that their behavior is inappropriate. The fact that all Cluster B's use "masks of sanity" is because they know how normals behave and they SHOULD behave. However, they are able to use their "primitive" defense mechanisms like denial, disassociation and twisted rationality to justify to themselves their own inappropriate behavior, and then use lies and distortions to convince others. The fact that this is a habit from childhood makes it easy to use and difficult to give up. The fact that normals believe them only enable these.

Normals control themselves by facing consequences, pain and postponing short-term gratification, in favor of the long-term. Cluster B's don't postpone short term gratification. Yes, some Cluster B's, especially low-functioning psychopaths may not improve with therapy, because their "wiring" is impaired beyond repair. However, sufficiently high-functioning Cluster B's, when faced with the inability to cope with their life and wanting to improve, do seek therapy and improve.

I have written elsewhere on this forum, that I have myself faced insidious childhood abuse, and could have grown up to be a psychopath. However, in college I recognized my behavior deficits and actively worked on them for the last 10 years to improve them. If I merely recognized my deficits but didn't work on them, excusing my behavior saying that my wiring is faulty and can't do anything about it, I would have been where I was - I would have rationalized my behavior as "survival of the fittest" or some such twisted logic and carried on. Rationality is the last refuge of scoundrels - and when twisted, offers them sanctuary to escape. But I CHOSE not to do it and instead work on myself - facing all my inner demons and fears with the same brutal honesty that I had previously applied onto others as an psychopathic tendency devoid of empathy, while on the other hand literally re-wiring myself with the outside world and its emotions.

HPDs, especially high-functioning ones, can improve through therapy, when they realise that they NEED and WANT to improve. Unlike psychopaths, HPDs are basically "fearful children" and the "reward and punishment" mechanism, which they understand very well and which they effectively manipulate, if used effectively against them by people who matter to them, could help them atleast get into therapy. For this they have to be held continuously accountable until there is a NEED and a WANT in them to seek therapy for themselves.

newtohpd wrote:

I think you're wrong. Psychopaths, at least, don't learn from consequences because we are physically incapable of it - psychopathy is a change in your mental wiring that results, amongst other things, in a lack of the ability to feel fear and learn from (and internalize) consequences. This is why psychopathic criminals are the ones that are almost impossible to reintegrate into society. While people with HPD aren't necessarily the same, I think that the fact that they seem to never really learn from consequences (except for very specific ones) isn't just because society lets them get away with it but rather because they can't.

I disagree on it being used as an excuse, while I agree on your content.

Yes, I am aware that the "wiring" is different. As I have written elsewhere on this forum, especially, the "wiring" in terms of the outer world feedback loop is impaired (empathy), resulting in the lack of ability to integrate this outside feedback and consequence with their internal world. This is why the understanding of the consequences are lacking. (In my previous post I wanted to keep it simple and avoid this kind of content). Again this "wiring" is also a psychological and behavioral construct to understand the thought process - there is a lot of debate on how much of it is reflected by "actual" neurological evidence.

However, not understanding consequences doesn't mean Cluster B's don't recognize their behavior as inappropriate. Many of them, especially the high-functioning ones are sufficiently intelligent to know that their behavior is inappropriate. The fact that all Cluster B's use "masks of sanity" is because they know how normals behave and they SHOULD behave. However, they are able to use their "primitive" defense mechanisms like denial, disassociation and twisted rationality to justify to themselves their own inappropriate behavior, and then use lies and distortions to convince others. The fact that this is a habit from childhood makes it easy to use and difficult to give up. The fact that normals believe them only enable these.

Normals control themselves by facing consequences, pain and postponing short-term gratification, in favor of the long-term. Cluster B's don't postpone short term gratification. Yes, some Cluster B's, especially low-functioning psychopaths may not improve with therapy, because their "wiring" is impaired beyond repair. However, sufficiently high-functioning Cluster B's, when faced with the inability to cope with their life and wanting to improve, do seek therapy and improve.

I have written elsewhere on this forum, that I have myself faced insidious childhood abuse, and could have grown up to be a psychopath. However, in college I recognized my behavior deficits and actively worked on them for the last 10 years to improve them. If I merely recognized my deficits but didn't work on them, excusing my behavior saying that my wiring is faulty and can't do anything about it, I would have been where I was - I would have rationalized my behavior as "survival of the fittest" or some such twisted logic and carried on. Rationality is the last refuge of scoundrels - and when twisted, offers them sanctuary to escape. But I CHOSE not to do it and instead work on myself - facing all my inner demons and fears with the same brutal honesty that I had previously applied onto others as an psychopathic tendency devoid of empathy, while on the other hand literally re-wiring myself with the outside world and its emotions.

HPDs, especially high-functioning ones, can improve through therapy, when they realise that they NEED and WANT to improve. Unlike psychopaths, HPDs are basically "fearful children" and the "reward and punishment" mechanism, which they understand very well and which they effectively manipulate, if used effectively against them by people who matter to them, could help them atleast get into therapy. For this they have to be held continuously accountable until there is a NEED and a WANT in them to seek therapy for themselves.

Oh your reasoning works very well if you look at HPDs like psychopaths - however, HPDs don't work like psychopaths. We're (psychopaths) always, to some extent, self-aware that we are very different from those around us and our masks are mostly conscious choices. HPDs, on the other hand, often never realize that there is anything different with them, and as such their masks are put on unconsciously. HPDs don't usually seek help for their disorder because they don't realize that they're different, unlike psychopaths who know that they are different but simply don't want to change. My HPD, for example, when I explained to her why she does what she does and explained her disorder to her, was relatively easy to convince that she needed help because once I'd given her essentially irrefutable proof of her condition it was somewhat shattering for her. They simply do not realize that normal people don't work like them, so (at least IMO) they shouldn't be accountable for their actions.

And you never had any chance of growing up into a psychopath, maybe someone with APSD. Psychopaths are INCAPABLE of feeling certain things and it's a genetic, not a socialized condition. APSD, on the other hand, can often be socialized through abuse or neglect. They are similar but there is a significant difference.

HPDs don't usually seek help for their disorder because they don't realize that they're different, unlike psychopaths who know that they are different but simply don't want to change. My HPD, for example, when I explained to her why she does what she does and explained her disorder to her, was relatively easy to convince that she needed help because once I'd given her essentially irrefutable proof of her condition it was somewhat shattering for her.

And this is the very reason, why I believe that during the "idealization" phase, it might be possible to use the "control" to take an HPD to therapy. My X did ask me many a times to help her understand people's intentions (which she has a problem with and which I pointed out to her) during the initial phases - but I didn't know that she has HPD and so tried in my own un-professional way which had little affect, except superficial adjustment of her "mask". If I knew about HPD then, I would have used my "control" to take her to therapy, while approaching the topic in a way that suits her needs as well.

And you never had any chance of growing up into a psychopath, maybe someone with APSD. Psychopaths are INCAPABLE of feeling certain things and it's a genetic, not a socialized condition. APSD, on the other hand, can often be socialized through abuse or neglect. They are similar but there is a significant difference.

I know the difference - I am using it as a general term. There is a lot of debate in the psych community on whether ASPD and psychopathy are different or similar. I know some tend to use the word sociopath for the ASPDs and sometimes Cluster B's in general.

By the way, I know my family history. I am aware of the genetic component of psychopathy, though I have reasons to doubt that some societies themselves are responsible for encouraging psychopathic behavior in certain forms, which then transform into other individual forms of behavior.