What's the difference between DID/DDNOS beyond the DSM

yakusoku wrote:I wonder if time loss defines an ANP, because although I have some ANP time loss, it is generally less noticeable and less disruptive...I guess because they are able to be "apparently normal" and pass as me. Stuff like doing my work before I was home with my daughter or caretaking stuff. It gets easy to ignore that sort of time loss as "I zoned out really bad" or "I must have forgot," since it's not something that stands out. I don't know if there is supposedly never any co-consciousness between ANPs. If that is the case, then I am leaning more toward CPTSD/DDNOS, even with my time loss.

Yes! This is what I am thinking too! Keep in mind these are my thoughts and not info I have read unless I state that, so take it all with a grain of salt, but its what makes sense to me.

My thoughts on DID... More than one ANP - I have read that there can be many similar alters (assuming ANP's) in DID, they look and think much the same. They take over for each other when needed. I feel like this all day long, but I can't be sure! I am so use to feeling confused, it's hard to know normal from me. I assume many of you feel the same.

My other thought is... Those with DID work toward co-consciousness, so we can't say there never is any, but prior to therapy (or whatever works for you) there should not be any co-consciousness.

I know nothing about BPD and CPTSD, but I think Una does.

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Una+ wrote:

yakusoku wrote:I wonder if time loss defines an ANP

No. In people with PTSD the ANP can lose time while the EP re-enacts the trauma.

AAAAAAAAAAAAGgggggggggghhhh!!! I think you are right!

So much for my theory of time loss = ANP

Back to the drawing board.

Thinking

But what if it only is when time is lost due to one ANP, taking executive control from another?


Yes? No? Maybe? I am nuts?




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Chapter 7 of this book, which I don't have, but here is the pdf.. has info on this subject. I have not read it though.


Treating complex traumatic stress disorders: an evidence-based guide

tylas wrote:I doubt you have PTSD, but Complex PTSD is very possible!

C-PTSD stems from childhood abuse just like DDNOS and DID.

Thanks Tylas,

Yeah, I always thought I had C-PTSD but this year it's become clear to me how fragmented I am and I put it to my Psychologist that I might have DDNOS. She agreed, but she's not that into the whole DSM paradigm.
I've never heard of PTSD having parts before so it's just thrown me a bit - I'm wondering if I 'just' have C-PTSD.
I'll do some reading. As I said, I'm suffering from fatigue at the moment so I can't read much.

Thanks, Zel.

-- Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:38 am --

Una+ wrote:Co-morbidity applies to disorders that have different causes. DID, CPTSD, and BPD all have the same cause, thus they have many symptoms in common and are regarded as mutually exclusive.

Hi Una,
The ISST-D does talk about co-morbidity between PTSD & DID...
"Since DID patients almost universally suffer from co-morbid PTSD,..."
I guess there are lots of different opinions?

Best, Zel.

PTSD and CPSTD are similar but not interchangeable.

PTSD and DID often are co-morbid due to the person living in an environment of neglect and danger, and subjected to multiple traumatic injuries. The co-morbidity is determined based on the history, not on the presenting symptoms. I'll give my own history as an example. I have DID (or DDNOS) but it appears that I also have some PTSD related to a traumatic event when I was 16. Or rather, one of my alters has PTSD. During the event I did not switch or split; instead I became co-present briefly with two alters who came out to protect me. One, the EP of the pair, seems to be the one who has panic attacks etc.

Thanks Una,

I hate to harp on this but what, in your opinion, is the difference between C-PTSD & 'DID-like' DDNOS?

ZeldaZonk wrote:

Una+ wrote:They are arguing that DID involves executive control being taken by two or more ANPs not just two or more distinct parts. This distinguishes DID from PTSD, in which all the extra parts typically are EPs, not ANPs. Individuals with PTSD sometimes have flashback episodes during which, the theory is, an EP takes executive control and the individual re-experiences or even re-enacts the traumatic event.

I guess I mean how / where does DDNOS fit in to the above?

Thanks, Zel.

Complex PTSD is a concept that probably is going to be submerged into Developmental Trauma. It is one aftermath of trauma in childhood, and involving betrayal of the child by an attachment figure. Like PTSD, Complex PTSD would involve only primary structural dissociation. To some people there is no bright line between CPTSD and PTSD, because even when the trauma is an act of God, well, that may be perceived by the person traumatized as a kind of personal betrayal by God.

Developmental Trauma is proposed as a kind of collective concept that would encompass narrower concepts such as CPTSD, DDNOS, and DID.

None of these labels are scientific facts. Diagnostic labels represent categories, and categories are just handy bins for grouping together psychotherapy clients, and are vocabulary keys to the relevant literature. Historically in medicine categories have been defined and organized by symptoms, but now due to advances in science they are being redefined and reorganized by underlying cause.

I really think that DID-like DD-NOS and DID should be grouped as one.

Called DID I and DID II using the same distinctions used now to distinguish the above.

tylas wrote:I really think that DID-like DD-NOS and DID should be grouped as one.

The proposed DSM-V would do that, by giving equal weight to the client's reported experience of alters, without requiring an overt display of alters taking executive control in the presence of the therapist.

Una+ wrote:Complex PTSD is a concept that probably is going to be submerged into Developmental Trauma. ...

Thanks Una, you're very patient!

Best, Zel

-- Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:18 pm --

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So, I guess my diagnoses is C-PTSD and DDNOS.
Apparently this is a pretty common 'co-diagnosis'.?

Best, Zel

Una+ wrote:

yakusoku wrote:I wonder if time loss defines an ANP

No. In people with PTSD the ANP can lose time while the EP re-enacts the trauma.

Co-morbidity applies to disorders that have different causes. DID, CPTSD, and BPD all have the same cause, thus they have many symptoms in common and are regarded as mutually exclusive.

I have been thinking! I know that is a pain, but I do it.
First of all I agree with what Una wrote above.

This is what I had wrote and what my new thoughts are will be in color.

ANP - I think we all agree that if we only have one Apparently Normal Part it is what we call the host.
We understand that DID has 2 or more ANP's and PTSD and DD-NOS have only ONE!
So to me .. this is the difference between DDNOS and DID. I know we all wonder, even if we have been DX's which do we really have!

So the question is..... How do we know what an ANP is?
I think... that IF you have more than one ANP, you WILL have Time Loss. There is no co-consciousness. I think .... that when another ANP takes executive control that the other ANP(s) will have amnesia for this period of time. I have read that when this happens the brain tries its best to make up a scenario for the lost time, which can result in the person seeming to be nutty.

I still agree totally with what I stated above. Thinking about Una's exception to this.. Here is my thought...

In DID an ANP will loose time if another AP takes control. This can only happen in DID because it is the only one that has more than one ANP.

When an EP takes control it can either be co-conscious or cause time loss such as in a flashback.

This is why those that have DD-NOS DO NOT loose time and those with DID do.


Arguments? Am I on the right track? Have I lost it entirely?

Una+ wrote:To some people there is no bright line between CPTSD and PTSD, because even when the trauma is an act of God, well, that may be perceived by the person traumatized as a kind of personal betrayal by God.

Surely there is a difference between people who were abused in an ongoing way by the people they depend on for everything, while their most important psychological development is supposed to be happening, and someone brought up in a nurturing 'good enough' environment with relatively good mental health etc who then has a traumatic experience in their 20's for example.
To me that's just common sense! Just my 2c.

Best, Zel.