What's the difference between DID/DDNOS beyond the DSM

hey,

Sorry to say i have absolutely NO insight into your quesions and answers lol just reading it all blew my mind with confusion! lol Too many big words! lol

I do have my own question that i suspect Una or Tylas will be able to answer (or point me to a resource who will be able to answer) so here goes:

I gat that to have DID you have to have more than 1 ANP (a concept i'm not totally comfortable with to be honest because as far as i've always known, i'm the only ANP for my system) so, this brings me to my question:

What classifies an ANP??
I have an alter who is a motherly nurturing alter who comes out and does all kinds of things such as cleaning, cooking, caring, presenting a happy front, helpful and calm in emergencies etc... But, as far as i've always known (and as far as shes concerned) shes an Alter! NOT an ANP. She knows there was trauma and she knows all about it, but she has no emotional connection to it, did not experience it and at times she attempts to push it away. (but has always told me it was because I'm not able to deal with it.)She says her role is inside primarily because i am grown now but that she used to be 'out' alot when i was little too- attempting to please my parents ect...

I also have some very high functioning alter 'littles' and one teen who has fulfilled the role of host for me during high-school (something i never knew about until now because she was never out for more than a few days to weeks at most and switched with me during those times... as a result, i'm only now realizing how much time i actually lost.)
So, pending the traits of an ANP, is it possible that these select few alters could actually be ANP's???
I guess i should also point out that these ones are the major ones inside too, they seem very very different (stronger and 'bigger' somehow) to everyone else inside and have a full range of emotions, unlike the rest of the insiders who seem to be fragments. They are also the ones who can choose to block me at will (when i was little and only in times of severe re-traumatization now and, only with the help of the gatekeeper- otherwise i'm co-con/ co-present)

Sorry to hijack the thread, if you like, i can delete the post and make it a new thread??\
Any help would be greatly appreciated, because all this ANP/EP stuff is really doing my head in! hahaha My T says i'm the ANP and everyone else is an EP, but that means its only 2ndary Dissociation when shes given me the Dx of DID. Is she wrong or still gathering intel on the others to see if they are ANP's too??

Thanks
H.

I think it's a good thought/observation, but I think it's exactly what is meant. Notice how you said "Has no connection, knows of the trauma, but can't deal with it." Just because she's an alter doesn't mean she can't perform duties as host.

About half of us are currently "apparently normal parts", in that we can fullfil the role of "living the life" at any time without having too much trouble from emotions, memories, etc. It's not that we don't know about them, it's just that we are in some ways better able to deal with things, and in some ways, programmed not to be triggered, and in some ways, we're just not as connected to the emotions and such.

I think the "can function fairly well when out and doesn't have much danger from triggers" would be the criteria for an "apn" as far as I can tell. Though that might be me structuring it to fit my own system/experiences instead of looking at it objectively... >.>;

Una+ wrote:The short answer is that DSM defines DID and DDNOS based on symptoms, not underlying causes. The difference between them is contained in the definitions. So all that matters is does the patient lose time.

I have more than one ANP.

What I want to know is exactly what is the difference between DID like -DD-NOS and DID beyond what the T and patient might miss like loss of time.

I am trying to think beyond the DSM and figure out how else to tell - I DO want to know the underlying cause! So what I am thinking is...
I want to know more about the ANP.

So for you... how do you know you have more than one ANP?


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weeble wrote:I get that to have DID you have to have more than 1 ANP (a concept i'm not totally comfortable with to be honest because as far as i've always known, i'm the only ANP for my system) so, this brings me to my question:

Thanks
H.

Hey Weeble! I always feel that I should wave back at your avatar. ~waving! You are a complicated little thing! Your T must love you! How fun to work with I bet!

What classifies an ANP you ask, that is my question as well?? My guess is that If you loose time and are not co-conscious then those that are out when you loose time make an ANP.. right? Do I have this right guys? I have not done my ANP research yet today.


"They are also the ones who can choose to block me at will (when i was little and only in times of severe re-traumatization now and, only with the help of the gatekeeper- otherwise i'm co-con/ co-present)" I am getting confused here now. Are you always co-conscious?

My T says i'm the ANP and everyone else is an EP, but that means its only 2ndary Dissociation when shes given me the Dx of DID. Is she wrong or still gathering intel on the others to see if they are ANP's too??

Please ask her and let us know! I am so curious!!!!

From what I was reading DD-NOS is harder to 'fix' than DID. I don't know which is the "only" ...

We are on the same page and have the same question! I hope to read more on that today and would love everyone's input too! This is not a hijack! This is exactly what I was trying to understand. We are in the same boat - This ANP/EP stuff makes my head hurt, but I must learn! I want to learn more!

I think I switch often during the day to alters that are so much like me that its hard to tell us apart, either that or I have one heck of a horrible memory. I am not sure though! I don't know if I have more than one Apparently Normal Part (don't you love that term?) I do want to know though!

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Aecy wrote:I think the "can function fairly well when out and doesn't have much danger from triggers" would be the criteria for an "anp" as far as I can tell.

Good input. I am sort of thinking that too, but I want to know for sure!

Hmmm. My "gut" tells me that the difference would be the fact that there are separate wills that have the ability to have a large degree of control over their "areas", so to speak. The secondary split seems to be a situation where there could still be one "person"/ruling force/entity/will that can switch between the part that deals with incoming stimuli and the part that holds in that which could prevent that one will from functioning, whereas DID seems to create, at least within me/us, a situation where there are multiple literal, forceful wills where there is n longer any one controlling will.

Sort of like how people can "stuff" their alters, but the alters don't go away, nor can they control the wills of the alters without the alters letting the walls down and allowing themselves to be influenced. Even during periods of intensive "stuffing", it was still, very literally, a battle of wills to keep control of the mind and body as a whole. Those dissociative people I have met who don't have splits seem to lack that element of "semi-autonomous wills that cannot be controlled or influenced unduly without the consent of said wills."

In a DD-NOS, it might just be more of a situation where there still is one will, it's just able to "dissociate" the portion that it cannot handle off to where it won't cause problems until it feels willing to take it back on again or unable to keep it from mucking up the conscious mind?

I dunno. This is just a theory totally based on our personal explorations of the subject within our own head. o.o; That, and I know a LOT of dissociative people. That seems to be the one defining factor: The semi-autonomy of alternate wills within the person to the point where no one will can truly be said to control another without consent.

I could see where that might be a case of further splitting beyond the ANP and the EP to the point where there is at least two of one or both. In fact, everyone seems to have an ANP and an EP. We just don't tend to see them as separate "people" or wills, and most "normal", and even "dissociative but not truly DID" people seem to have some degree of control over both without the multiple autonomous wills thingy preventing it.

Hey Tylas and Aecy

Aecy- what you said about being able to fill in the role of daily life is totally how i see the ISH/carer alter that i was talking about. How you put it makes perfect sense to us! If it fits your system, we must think alike, because it fits mine too! haha

Tylas- haha Yeah, we are pretty complicated. And yeah, i think my T has a great time getting to know everything. (Persecutors and all lol) i print out stuff all the time for her and she really loves how i can do some of the preliminary work for her haha.
Thanks for the compliment too, Boo is EXACTLY like the main little inside, lol.

With regard to what you replied to: I dont know if Lilly (the ISH/Carer that i spoke of) lost time, she says she didn't.(that she knows of)- the whole 'lost time' thing is really tricky because i have no idea i've lost it until i find very minor injuries or get told of events i supposedly attended ect...

But, here's my little nit pick: if you (as the ANP) lost time with everyone who was out wouldn't that just mean that ALL alters can be or are APN's??? i'm confused again!! lol

and yeah, we are pretty much always co-con. It takes them a little while to 'get to know how things work' (according to Lilly) and in those times until they do that, we all loose time. It didn't always work this way (apparently) but its the way it is now because 'master' (the gatekeeper) deems it safe for me to know about everyone now the danger is passed and healing can begin. (in HIS time of course haha) So, now, the only time i ever 'lose time' is when a new alter comes out of the shadows and joins the group... (or if the one who i currently locked away escapes)
Lilly just says "there's no need for secrets and there's no need to block you anymore." so yeah... i dont know.. all i do know is that when the others are 'out' i'm always very much there with them and in co- control and seeing things and hearing their thoughts before they speak etc. It really feels like i can 'snap out of it' at any moment if i try... Though, sometimes, when i do try, i can't lol.

I sure will ask the T the next time i go see her, shes gone away for 2 weeks now, so i wont get another chance till the 12th. But i definately will ask her, she should know seems as how she does lots of 'structural dissociation' workshops etc. Meh, i will ask...can't hurt right?

I read the link that was posted early in this thread and found some more characteristics of the ANP's, and she fits the bill somewhat, but misses out on a few of the characteristics too... i dont know, i think a definitive list might be nice! Someone should totally make one of those! And yeah, i have alters too, where i find myself suddenly not quite all 'there' and ask "who am i? Who is out right now?" Thats when i usually get the super helpful reply of "me!"

I look forward to reading more on the subject and asking my T at the next available opportunity!

Thanks for the great Thread!

The theory is that everyone has an Apparently Normal Personality and an Emotional Personality. In a singleton who is normal and not traumatized there is just one ANP and one EP, the ANP and EP are distinct but united, they have access to all the same information, and they are able to communicate freely with each other. They do not hide from each other and they are not autonomous. In DID terms, they are at least co-conscious, if not fully integrated.

In their article Trauma-related Structural Dissociation of the Personality, Ellert Nijenhuis, Onno van der Hart, & Kathy Steele describe how simple dissociation splits the ANP from the EP. To understand this thread, please first read this article.

I identify myself and each of the other alters in my system as an ANP or EP based on how each one feels and acts, especially in times of stress. Some are highly emotional; others are strikingly not emotional.

Dizzy... my head is spinning...

Wow! Great posts! I need time to digest all this and think!

The more input the better.

There seems to be no simple relationship between the type of alter (ANP or EP) and losing time when another alter has executive control.

In my system, Alter 1 and Teen Girl cannot take EC. Alter 2 can take EC but I (Una) remain aware (co-present, passenger). When Alter 1 takes EC, Alter 2 often comes out too (I think they are co-conscious with each other). My system has at least one more alter, who takes EC, during which everyone mentioned above loses time. Because we all lose time I don't know (yet) if the mystery alter(s) is/are ANP or EP.

Reading.....

What a trooper Una to get through this whole thing last night. I might need a nap half way through.

This Article is long and technical, so most of you might want to begin at the summary paragraph above this header: The Theory of Structural Dissociation of the Personality. That's how far I got. Nap time before I finish.

We concur with Myers (1940) that the failure to integrate traumatic experiences basically yields a structural dissociation of the premorbid personality into two mental systems (Van der Hart, 2000). This primary structural dissociation involves the EP that is essentially associated with re-experiencing the trauma, and the ANP that has failed to integrate the traumatic experience, and that engages in matters of daily life. (As we will discuss below, in more complex cases, the structural dissociation can be of a secondary or even a tertiary type.) In sum, peritraumatic dissociation is a manifestation of acute integrative failure, and sets the stage for the chronic failure to synthesize and personify the trauma.

I'm so glad you guys are posting on this thread. I have been trying to sort this tertiary dissociation (multiple ANPs and EPs) stuff since right after receiving my diagnosis and trying to sort whether I agreed I was DID or was maybe more DDNOS or CPTSD or BPD with extra dissociation. I read a similar article to the one that has been posted. I think I have multiple ANPs, but the low degree of contemporary amnesia I have (well, it happens constantly, but the periods are very brief and I don't actually do anything 90% of the time, just go away inside) makes me wonder if I can even be DID. My CT seems to be an ANP and manages both internal and external caretaking of others, is unaffected by trauma. My OO (Objective Observer) seems an ANP too and I think handles intellectual stuff. However, I rarely "go away" when they're out. They just kind of become me. I might feel completely different about the situations they dealt with for me later than I did when they were out.

Examples: My OO recently handled a "debate" with a loved-one in a completely intellectual, detached way, but later feeling very upset by things that were said to me when I initially just analyzed that person's behavior completely objectively. My CT took over part of my phone session on Friday and said a bunch of things to my T regarding keeping the kids away from him, while I don't actually want to keep the kids away from him--they want to connect with him so badly and I want it for them too. But, it's not like I wasn't there. I remember saying all of those things and knowing it was CT, but also once she said her part and went inside, I was disappointed and wanted to tell him to disregard it. So, they feel like not-me, fully-willed people with their own way of doing and relating to our life, both internally and externally. Neither of these two is traumatized at all. Is this an ANP? I'm assuming the people-pleasing, chronically good (your typical host) me is an ANP as well. Anyway, I range with co-present to co-hosting with the above most of the time, I think.

My five-year-old part also feels like very much a whole person (to the point where it feels like she sees me as a vehicle to get to or communicate with T, but not much more than that), but she does hold emotions and memories, so I guess she's an EP. My teen guy holds anger, but has a very important external role of disconnecting (or preventing connection) and so is out doing indifference for me when being connected or emotionally invested would be too much for everyone else to deal with. I guess he's an EP, but this is the part my FOO would most recognize as me, so does that make him an ANP? My depressed poet is who my high school friends would have recognized as me, because she's who I always was at school, but she holds my aloneness, and my creativity...I guess an EP, but if she came out in front of certain people, that is just who I normally am to them. I'm so confused. I guess the internal matters more than the external.

And yeah, i have alters too, where i find myself suddenly not quite all 'there' and ask "who am i? Who is out right now?" Thats when i usually get the super helpful reply of "me!"

My T asked this in our session on Tuesday, who he was talking to. And I did the same exact thing...said in a very irritated voice, "Me!" The problem was that it was host-me, but also someone else at the same time and I don't know how to explain it to him. Perhaps we should have said, "Us!!!"