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Freeze response

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Re: Freeze response

Postby SystemFlo » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:12 pm

The way I've learned it, is when you don't respond to anything anymore and go numb, it's the state of total submission, and that is different from freezing.

In the EP-side of mind there's seven different things, and I'm not sure if I can get translations straight, but they're attachment cry, hyper arousal, fight, flight, freeze, total submission and recovery. However, when that theory was made, there was no knowledge what actually happens inside body.

In freezing state you are very aware of the danger, but not about anything else than that. You can obey, but you're not initiative. You're not relaxed, but full of anxiety, so physiologically closer to the state of fight or flight, but instead of moving and doing something, all that power is being used to staying still and suppressed. Your body is very tense. That's the state Fourteen is in a lot, and when there's no true danger he's still halfway there if he feels he has failed somehow (and can't please the right way), for example when he tried to talk with T, but his voice is wrong kind. He looks OK, but he's lost the understanding of his ability to go away, and he just survives. When it's over, all feelings come, and that's when he knows he wasn't happy. He doesn't know it as long as he is in that situation. He has EP-parts that are highly adaptive and co-operative and willing to please, and he has parts who freeze. Those highly adaptive parts you could mistake as ANPs, if their ability to understand life outside of what they are for wouldn't be that narrow. Even his defender is not trying to fight or flight, he's just stopped caring and anxiousness has turned into being amused twisted ways and.. well, being crazy.

The state of total submission happens when you know you are going to die, and you accept it and don't fight it anymore. Knowing you are gonna die is subjective experience, so it doesn't have to mean it happens only when someone really dies, but it's how you experience the situation. (And people can also die during fight state, so that is no indicator, only the experience is.) Then your consciousness goes lower, you don't feel pain and you don't respond to anything anymore. But how I've understood it, that's when your body goes relaxed and so does your mind, so it's kind of the opposite of being in frozen state. Frozen state is pure paralyzed fear, in total submission there's no fear anymore, just acceptance.

By the way, human is not only species capable of logical thinking. Dogs can reason the name of a new toy simply by ruling out wrong options, just for example. (It was found out in the study where a scientist tried to find out how many words can a dog learn. The answer to that wasn't found, since the scientist retired before dogs ability was challenged to the point it couldn't learn anymore. Dog retired too and stopped learning new words scientifically controlled ways. It didn't retire to be just companion tho, since it was a border collie, and they don't do well as pets. So it continued it's hobbies, obedience, agility and hearding sheep.)

Sleepingwolf, before I knew that Fourteen sometimes came close to body when I worked, that kind of half-freeze states happened sometimes at work. It was when we were asked to do something, but he doesn't know what it means, so we forget basic things I know very well. Then comes the anxiety, which I don't really feel, I feel just stupid. He is aware we need to obey, while I know our vets aren't gonna punish us. And we can't reason what to do. Also we stop understanding what we see, when we need to find a certain thing. I can't be sure if it wasn't there, or was I just unable to see it. And sometimes I don't remember what does it look like what are we supposed to find, and where should we look for it. For example all meds, there's 8 different places where they can be, and in some of the places they can be inside bigger boxes. Where to find it depends on many things, like what is it for, how it needs to be restored, is it injection or something else, prescription or free market etc. Sometimes I only know that the name is very familiar, so I DO know what is it, but Fourteen can't know any of it, and because he freezes, I don't have access to my memory. We can't think, it's like our brains just stop functioning. Sometimes it's something so easy, like get right package to animal that weighs X kilos. And we see all packages and the numbers on them, and just stare them, and can't find out if 3 kg cat should have a med that says over 5kg or the one that says 5 and under. I can get it right when I found out what was I supposed to do, like just found out is 3 smaller or bigger number than 5, but before we manage to make a plan what are we supposed to do, we can just stand there and stare.

Luckily that doesn't happen often, and it is related to how parts move, not to what happens at work. Actually when there is something severe happening, it's when I am on my best, and when it's busy I'm good at multitasking. In that kind of situations work me probably pushes everyone else away and does what is she here for. Too much time leaves room for others and we can end up :shock: .
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Re: Freeze response

Postby birdsong87 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:38 pm

you are mixing coping mechanisms with arousal levels.
attachment cry/looking for help/active submission/tend&befriend are coping strategies we use when we are still in the ventral vagal circuit, when we are still looking for a rational way to solve this.
every one of the circuits has a spectrum. The shutdown circuit covers both freezing and fainting.
Try not to base your understanding on Pete Walker. He is describing things the way he feels them instead of the scientific physiological facts that are available now.
if you want to get nerdy about this there is a relatively new podcast that speaks about the science behind arousal states
https://www.justinlmft.com/podcast
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Re: Freeze response

Postby sleepingwolf » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:27 am

Awesome guys! Thanks for your comments. It's so good to read and see your experiences too. Its such an interesting subject!

It's also quite scary too, especially when there is pressure or a need to 'think big'



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Re: Freeze response

Postby AutumnJ » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:22 am

Indeed this is an interesting thread :)

I have experienced similar to Arin, where I have "frozen" and I can sense one of my alters doing what you said Mike, did. Sometimes when I see someone and for some unknown reason, I sense either fear, or anxiety, it's quite gripping, I feel myself freezing, but an alter scans the area etc. One will then take over if I, to quote Autumn J, "don't snap out of it". He doesn't mean that in a nasty way, just in a concerning way.

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