Did at least one person love you as a child?

We believe that sometimes it is a choice, and sometimes it is simply all they know or they're "too far gone".

We are sure that "Hannibal" is capable of being a worse monster than our father by far, and while his actions are indeed his choice, his way of thinking and mindset is not. Actions are always choices. Mindsets and what someone knows and is familiar with are not always choices, and these are the things that cause the thought, impulse, or desire to act.

Like our father. Yes, he had a choice. Yes, he could've gotten help. Yes, he knew/would admit at times that he needed help but refused to get it. Yes, he could've decided to not drink around us. Yes, he could've made a lot of different choices. And he probably would have IF he was more healthy himself. For him, he made great strides. All he knew for the most part was abuse- physical, sexual, verbal, psychological, and emotional. He was not given good role models, he was not shown love until much later on in life (high school years- he found the first and only nice foster home, but when they wanted to adopt him for good, he didn't understand why they would want him, he got scared, and he ran away). His learned reactions, his mindset, how he thought, etc., were not his choices. He did the best he could with what life dealt him. He never physically abused us. He never sexually abused us. And his abuse was not done with the intent to harm or abuse at all. It was simply done. It was all he knew. And the alcoholism didn't help.

We've come to realize that while some things, like getting help, was our father's choice, while other things, such as what he knew about raising a child properly, was not his choice, and he simply tried to do the best he could with what he knew and his learned/reflexive behaviours.

We've also come to realize that even when there seems to be a choice, it's not a full choice. Like we stated before, actions are always choices. Mindsets, thought processes, and what is known are not always choices. So, yes, while some parents seemed to have a choice, in truth, they most likely only had a partial choice. They could've acted differently, but they most likely wouldn't have unless they were more healthy themselves because the thought process, the option, to act differently either isn't there, isn't cared about, or isn't thought about, because they don't know to think like that, to care about that, or that a choice exists.

Our father is a great guy- to outside people. And he tried to be a great guy/dad to me. But he just wasn't able to. Yes, it was his choice to not seek help, and yes, it was his choice to make it worse by drinking, but everything else, now that we really look at it, was not really his choice. It was simply what he knew, what he was familiar with, what he had learned, what was reflexive, etc. It was not a choice that was entirely in his power to control to be a great guy to others and a "bad dad" to me.

So, yes, we believe that for the most part, it can be a choice, but there will always be something that affects the ability to make that choice, or to act out that choice well, that is not choice. Especially if abusers have been abused themselves.


~A mixture of us(?)

It seems like this discussion becomes quite existential.

I have once heard a worldview from someone that is a bit like tomboy24's explanation.
It came down to: humans work deterministic, but the free will lies somewhere at the point where there are multiple options to choose from. The outcome can't be influenced. I don't really understand it myself, though, as it seems contradictory.

I completely agree with tomboy. While actions are always choices, the way the individual thinks determines what they know and what they view as choices.

In my family, it's a matter of atmosphere. My grandmother is very controlling. She's very defensive. And so that was the environment my family grew up in. That's how they learned to live. My grandmother was very supportive, as long as the problem had nothing to do with her. She was perfect. If you said anything against her, problems would arise. But of course, you have to try to keep the peace. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all (at least not to anyone's face). Feelings and opinions were stifled. Complaints people had went around behind the other's backs. So people were always suspicious of what others really thought of them. People were always trying to read others and keep their own thoughts from getting out. This meant that when word did get out about what someone said, a fight ensued. And fights were usually avoided, never dealt with or addressed, so no one knew how to deal with them once they were brought to light. People would get upset and drag others into it. If your parents were fighting with your aunt, everyone chose sides, and you were automatically sided with your parents - you just lost an aunt, a cousin, maybe even half of your family. This atmosphere prompted secrecy and manipulation, people don't really trust each other. And family drama runs rampant. And everyone is defensive. No one wants to look bad, because that gives people something to gossip about. And it's easy to get people turned against you and never know why. People don't want that. So no one can have any problems or weaknesses. It's a cycle. One person tries to break it, they get squashed by everyone else. You can't break the mold. And when you grow up in a place like that, you view the whole world through that lens. You read too deeply into everyone and everything, you don't know how to get close to people, you're always watching your back and you never apologize - because that shows fault. I was the same way until high school, to some degree.

Now, I don't blame my family, I just feel sorry for them. They can't even admit they have a problem - not even to themselves. They will never get help. They will never know what it's like to be healthy. They will be looking over their shoulders for the rest of their lives. And I can't do anything to help them - because implying that they need help is only insulting them. The only reason I got out of it is because I had a friend who insisted on teaching me what was and wasn't "normal", or healthy. I had an alter to take the worst out of my atmosphere (or so I suspect, since Jen is the one who is manipulative, and can't relax, and has a hard time trusting people, and always feels oppressed, while I just feel confused and stressed). My introject, instead of being integrated and teaching me to be like them, is separate and attacks me like them. So I was able to break out of the cycle. They never will. They hurt me because they were hurt and must always defend, even if the one they are fighting isn't a threat. And unlike me, it's too late for any of them to heal. I think that's sad. It's not a choice, because they don't see any other option.

On the other hand, my mother gave birth to me before she was old enough to know how to handle a kid because she wanted my dad to marry her so that she could get out of her house (because she didn't like her parents' rules), she didn't want to give up her freedom, she didn't want to learn how to be a good parent. So she didn't. As a result, I was frequently neglected, left alone in my room all day, if I disturbed her in any way, I would find myself alone without even a toy to occupy myself with, if my dad found out I'd been in my room all day or that my things were taken away, he was told about "how bad I had been" so I deserved it, my mom did all sorts of drugs and drank while I was home, she invited friends over while my dad was at work (whether or not they ever interacted with me in any way is yet to be determined, since I have no memories of this part of my life), and there was almost constant yelling and fighting, until I finally moved with my grandmother after the divorce at age 5. Everything she did to me was out of sheer irresponsibility and selfishness. Whether having the official diagnosis of narcissism means she didn't have a choice or not doesn't make much difference to me. I still blame her completely. Maybe that's wrong. I don't really know enough about narcissism to know if she would have seen other options.

I'd also like to add, however, that just because I feel sorry for my family for their situation, and just because my mom may not have seen her actions at the time as a choice, that doesn't mean that I don't hold them accountable for their actions. It also doesn't mean that I have forgiven them for hurting me. It means I understand them. It means that I recognize them as human beings with problems of their own, not monsters who do this sort of thing just to torment me for no reason at all; something made them this way. But I do believe that I have no obligation to let them keep hurting me or forgive them for their actions, until I'm ready to do so.

But all these are just my current thoughts on the matter.

We agree completely.

Just because we can understand, put ourselves in their shoes the best we can, and sometimes even sympathize, this does not mean that it excuses them or that we forgive them or that everything's "ok". Explanations explain things, they don't excuse things. Just because you can see if from their point of view doesn't mean you like it or agree with it. It just means you can see it and can understand it.

~A mixture of us(?)