non-seeking guidance

Ha! cbox you busted me. Of course there's right and wrong, but unlike light vs. dark right and wrong are subjective distinctions. In Morocco, for example, they have very different ideas of say, the "right way" to get to the crowded ticket counter, they push, shove, wave arms, yell. In our culture this behavior would be considered "wrong" as the "right" way is obviously to stand calmly and orderly in line.

Can you see my point? This issue between me and my wife is not so simple as to say "I'm right and she's wrong."

I'm not perfect, and over the years I've probably done every "never do" there is when your lover is dis-ordered. I was wrong to put off seeking help for so long. I am "wrong" every time I loose my temper and raise my voice. I was wrong to believe her accusations of things I KNOW aren't true about myself. I am "rightfully" hurt by her behaviors. I am right to stand up and say "I won't live THIS cycle again and I need to see change happen otherwise it'll be wrong for *me* if I stay."

The phone calls? No more, quite a while ago I realized that more harm than help came from this. I "slid" this in as an example of my "wrong" actions. Oh, it sure is nice not to tiptoe around these da** words. My point in including this was that NEITHER of us are innocent, NEITHER of us are completely "right," we have "wronged" each other.

I'm going to work with the concept of "unintentional manipulation." I have only a vague understanding HOW this might work. Thx.

So: therapy=potential for change. Acceptance of the role as written=Validation of villain status. No change=packed bags.

Thanks for the link, and the perspective too, I hadn't considered her denial as delusional behavior, but really, it is. Cracked is certainly right. Without insight there can be no growth... But, my patience, my willingness to wait for a "clearer" window of opportunity, may be just as harmful to both of us in the long run. Hmmmm....

Hey Atalanta -I started typing a response her, before I saw your post above.. It still applies though.. Good luck to you!!

Infinite_Jester wrote:Hey Atalanta,

Another point I wanted to mention is that I somewhat question your intentions. When I read what your writing I'm asking myself "does he want advice for how to support his wife or does he want us to give him advice for how to get his wife to admit she was wrong and stop misbehaving?" If your intention is the former then I think your on the right track. However, if your intention is that latter then I think things could not possibly go well. At worst, it sounds almost as if you were begging readers of this forum, freinds and the therapist that you indicated you were seeing to take your side and acknowledge "he's the good guy and she's mentally disordered and misbehaving". At best, it sounds like your really hurt by what she has done to you and want her desperatly to acknowledge it.

I think in someways were getting side tracked here. Infinite Jester hit the nail on the head with intentions. What I believe from having read her posts is..
1. she is substituting us in place of friends for her validation.
2. It's not about how to support her, it's about how to get her to learn it's ok to be wrong, admit it, and be accountable for her actions. This is admited in various places.

I think we can all agree that getting a gun and spreading rumors is probably a bad thing to do.

That brings us to what the real issue is and that's the relationship...

Ultimately though, I don't know if I can handle another session as the villain. I want to know if this mental association can change or do I need to accept that I will be the person to be villainized as long as I am in her life?

This is what it comes down to...
1. Can she get her wife to accept responsibility for words/deeds

It's clear that more than likely she is not going to accept responsibility for words/deeds because she's delusional.

Yet, SHE STILL CAN'T ADMIT THAT SHE SAID ANYTHING to him, OR THAT SHE LIED about what was said YESTERDAY. ** and ** (BTW when first confronted with the windfall her response to me was "What? I'd never say THAT. You're great with kids, especially the toddlers, it's what you do best.)

2. Is Atlanta going to be villainized for as long as she's in her life.

The answer to this, would then be yes. She will be villainized for as long as she's in her life. That's because her wife can't admit or accept any wrong doing.

The question to you (Atlanta) then becomes.. can you accept that she seems incapable of admitting she does wrong, and because of that you will be seen as the villain or would it be best for you to get out of an abusive relationship (which you admit it is)?

No matter what we say or how we say your right, if she's incapable of accepting responsibility, it all comes down to that question..

cbox,

t

cboxpalace wrote:I think in someways were getting side tracked here. Infinite Jester hit the nail on the head with intentions. What I believe from having read her posts is..
1. she is substituting us in place of friends for her validation.
2. It's not about how to support her, it's about how to get her to learn it's ok to be wrong, admit it, and be accountable for her actions. This is admited in various places.

1. Not substituting, actually the emotional support, and validation, I'm getting from personal friends, has lent me the courage, and the confidence to reach out to complete and total strangers. Why then? You all here don't know me, you don't know her, but you do know of disordered minds. So, I spewed my mental vomit, you all responded and you know what? It's mostly stuff I've heard before, from friends and family, coincidence? I think not. What is actually being validated? The fact that this relationship will continue to hurt me unless huge changes happen. Secondary point of validation; the only real source of "control" I have over change here is to end the relationship. Sucks really, guess maybe I was hoping you all would paint a rosy, sweet, and hopeful picture filled with great tools, and skills, and magic beans but even my most creative daydreams didn't really believe that.

2. Yes, I'm madder than a hatter about this last blast to my sense of stability and self. Yes, I would love learn how to handle situations that arise from delusional moments in a way where EVERYONE involved could benefit. Is this desire to see her grow into a person who is able to be accountable for her actions motivated by my wounded pride? Heck yes. Selfishly motivated even? Yep. It is also about seeing this behavior in action for the first time outside of the fog of my own personal fears and head trips. Seeing it OUTSIDE of, apart from, the context of our screwy relationship has granted me the ability to understand, with more depth and compassion, the he** she lives in. Do I desire to be able to be more supportive of/for her? Without a doubt. I've been running myself in ragged circles for about six years now trying to figure out what it was she REALLY needed. Too bad I was too ignorant, naive, or stubborn to know to reach out for help way back then. Having skills THEN before so many abusive patterns were written, might have made a huge difference in how we've treated each other.

Sometimes, when I read posts from people, I think, they know the answers to the questions they ask. The problem is NOT wanting to accept that answer, and hoping to hear that an alternative solution may exist where there is none. I "think" you know the answer to your problem, and it's one you don't like. No one would if they were in your situation.

Too bad I was too ignorant, naive, or stubborn to know to reach out for help way back then. Having skills THEN before so many abusive patterns were written, might have made a huge difference in how we've treated each other.

You can beat yourself up with this would've/could've/should've approach, but would it have done any good had you reached out sooner for help? More than likely it would've been an uphill battle then as well. You can only change yourself, and when it comes to her I get the sense that she doesn't want to change, and probably wouldn't have wanted to change then either. Maybe you would've learned different coping skills, but it's also reasonable that this this situation with her would've taken an emotional toll on you at some point.

I posted a link on the other page, and if you haven't looked at it.. you may want to. It gives an effective strategy for communicating when the objective is the relationship. In fact, it maps everything out for you.

No matter what happens this forum would still a great place to come for support. I wish you well with whatever decision you choose to make...

Thanks C.

know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.

I got a phone call tonight from an old friend from high school. We haven't seen each other very often since the '90's. He called to tell me he's dying, not much time left, 36 years old.

He needed to tell me how much I meant to him, how much I inspired him, at age 15. He said he's never forgotten me, and that he's felt I've hidden myself away, that I need to be out sharing myself with others, that I'm important and bring laughter and love where ever I go and that no matter what I am just really not allowed to forget it again.

Out of the clear blue sky.
Then he said Goodbye.

He seemed at peace, happy with his life, and ready to accept the end.
Reflected to me was the comparative triviality of the end I'm facing.

Ask and ye shall receive, cry out and you will be answered, spread love and joy and one day it'll just smack return to you.
And So Mote it Be.