I hate you by association????

When I lash out and start to push people away it's not because I hate them, it's because I've been hurt and my anger along with pushing them away keeps me from being hurt more. Although it still hurts, because I miss them. I just don't want the hurt to be more than it already is. (I feel weak and pathetic for writing that because I'm a 42 year old guy)

I'm in dbt, and for awhile felt like I fit in with the others. I had a falling out with one person, and now because of that I've pushed everyone away. It's hard now because I feel like I'm an outsider looking in. It's been this way now for about 4 weeks. Even if I wanted to talk to the people I wouldn't know what to say. It didn't use to be like this.

I'm just wondering if others can relate to or do this as well. Have a falling out with one person and because of that push everyone else that's associated with them away as well??

-- Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:20 pm --

A part of me wishes that I could be close to these people in my dbt group again, but I have no idea of what I would say or do to make things right or how I could be comfortable around them again.. I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I don't. No matter what happens I hurt, and I'm so tired of hurting..

have you thought of discussing this with the therapist in charge of your DBT group? just thinking its the sort of thing DBT might be supposed to help with.

please don't feel weak and pathetic, cause i doubt the emotional pain pwBPD experience is any less painful just because you are a 42 year old guy.

i want to try to write something more helpful, but its half 3 in the morning here right now, and i want to try to sleep at night, lol so i will try sometime tomorrow...

Maybe if there is ever going to be a good time and place to work out these issues (at least partly) perhpas "now" and "with your a dbt group" could be it?

As katana suggests - discuss it with the therapist in charge?

Could this be catastrophic or extreme thinking?
Could it be others might think the same as you about the "that person"?

"I feel weak and pathetic for writing that because I'm a 42 year old guy " - Could the expectations you put on yourself about "age and gender appropriate behaviour"be limiting or imprisoning you a bit - as well as setting yourself up for failure. Who says 42 year old guys can't question or admit things. Many think that is a strength.

Is it possible others in your group are there because they have som eof the same issues as you and would understand/help/or welcome a chance to discuss this?

I have done what you are doing.
Not sure what comes first - the chicken of feeling sensitive - or the egg of someone saying something I interpret as hurtful. But i do it. Used to feel so desparate not to loose people that i kept them and did not let them know they hurt me even if they did - felt ashamed that I was hurt either because I was "over-sensitive" or because i might have misinterpreted what they meant or because i was embarassed i did not stand up for myself.

Now if/when or because I feel a bit more inner confidence and believe my interpretation that they did say something hurtful, the result is I distance myself because they are not the kind of person I want around me because they will no doubt cause me further hurt.

Not sure what to do about it.
Is there another type of group or therapy that is more relationship based? I think possibly REBT might have something to say about this if you want to investigate - but not sure - not an expert - just finding out as I go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_e ... or_therapy

Have had periods in the past when I was able to be relatively cool about disagreements. Felt they were inevitable given that we all have such different values and views. Would agree to differ and probably a lot less hurt was triggered in me. Or if it was, perhpas I might put it down to their insensitivity or immaturity or even wonder ifI took what they said wrong but not worry about it too much or expect everyone to be perfect, including myself. I might be able to see both the good and the bad in them and enjoy the good without being too upset by the bad. Other times I am "all or nothing" thinking again and cannot be around them.

Think maybe I should lower my expectations. Accept or expect to be hurt now and again but work out a better strategy to deal with the hurt when it happens. Build my internal confidence and boundaries so i am not so easily hurt? How would i do this? By accepting myself, good and bad bits, weak and strong bits and trying to have decent values and I stick to them so I know i do not deserve to be hurt and do not have the right to hurt others and do not need to retaliate if someone else behaves badly. Lower my expectations of them so I am not disssapointed. Just let them be who they are and do what they want and show themselves up if they act badly. Try not to let them press buttons that make me react with hurt and anger. I am thinking I have stumbled onto something here. Could this be an answer?

Is your group just a place where strangers sit and get lectured on techniques - or is it more of a discussion group?
Could you ever imagine saying,
"When I lash out and start to push people away it's not because I hate them, it's because I've been hurt and my anger along with pushing them away keeps me from being hurt more. Although it still hurts, because I miss them. I just don't want the hurt to be more than it already is."
to them?
Could you imagine saying it if the person you fell out with was not there?
Sometimes people respect people who are self aware and honest and mature enought to admit a weakness or share an insight about themself - the self aware, honest, mature ones anyway.
But if they are an immature close knit group who are now excluding you, then maybe this would not be possible?
Or are they a decent lot who would be ok and worth the effort?

Sorry this is a bit long - sort of thinking out loud about your situation and my own.
If you work out a solution to all this - let me know!?
I'm going to think abit more about what i wrote in the middle - the stuff about lowering expectations and trying to think differently so I do not react to the simulus of other's hurting me.
Good luck.

First I'd like to say thank you to both you and Katana for responding, because I don't really have anyone else to talk to or get input from.

ladyjello wrote:1. Maybe if there is ever going to be a good time and place to work out these issues (at least partly) perhpas "now" and "with your a dbt group" could be it?

2. Could this be catastrophic or extreme thinking?
3. Could it be others might think the same as you about the "that person"?

1. Possibly, if that door presents itself to me. It's not really possible to go off track of the specific homework/lesson. We only get approximately 5 minutes to go over our homework, and an opportunity to bring it up unfortunately hasn't presented itself. Although, I would be concerned about making things awkward for her.

2. Definetely NOT catastrophic or extreme thinking. I have been the biggest asshole you can imagine. I amaze myself sometimes with some of the stuff that comes out of my mouth and how extremely blunt I can be.

3. No. She interacts with them, talks with them, laughs with them. To be fair to her I don't think she has done anything wrong. It's my defense mechanism that has kicked in and because of that I've pushed everyone away.

To give more background on this situation...Her and I entered dbt class at the same time, and we're both close in age, she's 50. I connected with her from almost day 1. Our situations with life are so similar you could almost interchange our names. About 7 weeks ago we went for coffee. Had a good time, I thought, we were there for almost 2 hours. After that she no longer wanted to meet for coffee. Neither one of us has any friends. I told her that I didn't want to lose her as a friend when we graduated. My rational mind gets her situation when she said she can't even see that far ahead, and has to focus on just making it thru the day. That's when my defenses kick in. I no longer want to know anything about her or anyone else for that matter. That way when class is done I can just say "good luck with life, bye". I miss her now. I don't want to miss her more later. It was nice having someone to talk to that was in the same boat, understood. It was nice being talked to rather than being around someone who felt the need to give unsolicited advice. It makes me think of how I wasn't good enough for anyone else in my past, and apparently now I'm not good enough for someone that is in the same situation as me. It makes me feel worthless amongst other things. I should clarify here we did nothing inappropriate. Everything could be freely discussed in class.

"I feel weak and pathetic for writing that because I'm a 42 year old guy " - Could the expectations you put on yourself about "age and gender appropriate behaviour"be limiting or imprisoning you a bit - as well as setting yourself up for failure. Who says 42 year old guys can't question or admit things. Many think that is a strength.

I don't think so.

Is it possible others in your group are there because they have som eof the same issues as you and would understand/help/or welcome a chance to discuss this?

Honestly, I don't know the answer to this. I want to say others, as well as, her wouldn't care. I base that though on nothing other than emotion.

And loosing that one person has resulted in loosing other mutual friends too either because they liked that person more than me, or were closer to that person than me or because I assumed that and did not keep in touch with them cos it would be awkward.

here's the weird part. the others have done nothing to me. I use to feel comfortable and it was easy to talk to them. Now, I have no idea what I'd say to them. It's like I don't even know them anymore. I don't understand why it's like that or what's happening within me or taking place in my mind to make it like that.

Is your group just a place where strangers sit and get lectured on techniques - or is it more of a discussion group?

Both. The first half is homework review, and the second half is lecture.

Could you ever imagine saying,
"When I lash out and start to push people away it's not because I hate them, it's because I've been hurt and my anger along with pushing them away keeps me from being hurt more. Although it still hurts, because I miss them. I just don't want the hurt to be more than it already is."
to them?

Probably, if the opportunity presented itself where it would fit in with discussion. If I said I'd make sure she was present.


I think I got everything or most everything. Your insight is appreciated!!

-- Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:40 am --

katana wrote:have you thought of discussing this with the therapist in charge of your DBT group? just thinking its the sort of thing DBT might be supposed to help with.

I did discuss this with the student psychologist, and fully understands the situation. She feels that there was some sort of mixed signal (see above). She said that this is a situation that I might have to radically accept. I'm not sure if that's the answer though.

i want to try to write something more helpful, but its half 3 in the morning here right now, and i want to try to sleep at night, lol so i will try sometime tomorrow...

Now it's almost 3AM in the morning here, and I'm brain dead.

Yeh, I've done this 'hate by association' thing. It comes and goes. It's normal, if extreme and is all about projecting and protecting ourselves totally from what has hurt us in the past. There's also a pride element in there, like you're making a stand or statement towards someone because of a slight that you have felt has been done to you by someone they closely associate with. Kinda like, 'if you associate with that scumbag then you're no different.' lol. I know you're thread isn't exactly about that but more about random defensiveness against anyone and everyone, but I just thought I'd bring that into the discussion too. lol.

Maybe (if i understand correctly) your positive feelings and expections of a friendship with this woman and the class have been all connected. Now that your expectations have been dissapointed about the friendship, perhaps in your mind you see the whole class as associated with those negative feelings?

Its a pity it wasn't possible for you to continue the friendship. It is hurtful when hopes are dissapointed for anyone, especially for anyone with BPD or traits whose feeling about these things may be more acute. Maybe you did the best thing you could to self protect although it is a shame it has distanced you from the others too. I do not know all the circumstances and am unclear about whether your anger and hurt caused you to ignore her or if you said something to her that might require an apology.
Hope you work it out and that the rest of your course goes well for you.
Thanks for your thanks!

what i thought of reminded me of a situation with someone i know who has fallen out with a bunch of people because of things that happened. i don't even know the exact details of what happened (its up to that person if they want to tell me.)

if things go badly, there are always some people who end up "siding with" one person, and that means people get used to being rejected/treated badly socially by some people. of course at the same time, there are other people who won't reject you or treat you badly, and still like you - but if you feel very sensitive to that, its natural to struggle with being able to deal with that. - if some of it is fear/knowledge of how some of those people will treat you, and also not being able to rationally understand some of the others really won't...

talula wrote:Yeh, I've done this 'hate by association' thing. It comes and goes. It's normal, if extreme and is all about projecting and protecting ourselves totally from what has hurt us in the past. There's also a pride element in there, like you're making a stand or statement towards someone because of a slight that you have felt has been done to you by someone they closely associate with. Kinda like, 'if you associate with that scumbag then you're no different.' lol. I know you're thread isn't exactly about that but more about random defensiveness against anyone and everyone, but I just thought I'd bring that into the discussion too. lol.

Not originally, but it kinda belongs here too, because if you do that, you can end up not spending time with some people you otherwise like, thinking they are associated with those other people. I had the problem of finding places full of too many idiots and then cutting myself off from almost everyone, but the truth might be that some people have just accepted there will always be idiots, and that you are never going to like or get on with everyone who is around, so if you split everyone black based on just some of them, you are going to end up losing out on spending time with anyone at all.

I suppose in the end, it comes down to grey areas, and that there are grey areas everywhere in life, that situations are also going to be grey areas, and they often mean tolerating what you don't like along with what you do (potential rejection, people you dislike, etc.) - but obviously if people are trying to treat you badly at any time, also being able to stick up for yourself, keep your distance and choose who you spend time with and who you don't.