BPD and ASPD -- I don't feel like you.

Cat Eyes wrote:Hi electric.

I have BPD traits though not the full disorder, and I think it is very normal to have different sides to ourselves. The issue that people with BPD have is that these different sides are not well integrated. Everything has to be black or white for a Borderline and it is hard to meet in the middle, so to speak. Hence why you have distinct sides to yourself that seem so opposite to you. It is like you cannot fathom that both of these sides could exist within you when in fact they can.

I personally believe everyone has an inner sociopath that is more pronounced in some people than others. There are times when i think could kill certain people quite easily. Times when i loathe humanity and feel as if I would be ambivalent if the world ended tomorrow. But I am also extremely sensitive, empathetic and eager to help anyone in need. I hate to see anyone suffer. Both of those sides are apart of me.

In short, I do not think you are as strange as you think you are.

this is brilliant.

this whole thread is brilliant.

there are darker parts of my personality that i am literally afraid of getting to know because they aren't what i'm "supposed" to be like. those feelings are "bad" or only "bad people" have them. so i stuff them down really deep and do my best to ignore and avoid them. which i am very good at doing. but sometimes when i'm weak, they show themselves and on more than one occasion a family member or someone i'm with has said, "i don't like you when you're like this." so it's conditioned me to do my best to hide that part of me.

but if i did, if I spoke aloud about the thoughts that come into my head, or the impulse ... even now i can't even type them out. i don't want to think about them...

but yes the black and white thinking is that constant struggle in me. i want to be the caring person who helps others, or the person who is giving and loving and sweet and kind. and to many that's what i am. but i can't keep that facade up for very long. one second i'm empathetic of the plight of the downtrodden. then the next, i'm like; just kill them all - put them out of their misery.

and i hate myself for thinking that way, or feeling that way.

the pendulum swings between apathy and impassioned conviction on a constant basis. i can literally SEE people unable to keep up wtih me, or thinking i'm a fake who only pretends to care. and to be honest i don't know if i do or not.

Alice what a really good poster, if someone wants to have positive emotions, somehow she is able to convey those emotions through her posts. So reading her makes you feel good for some reason. She was also seriously working on herself and had very good insights.

I have very dark parts and an ever changing moral compass. I also have very warm parts. I can't say im afraid of the darkness within myself...i believe there is a place for that too. I dont think i have much of black and white thinking though...

biitchelectric wrote:This is a difficult topic for me.

I am posting this thread because I am looking for feedback from individuals diagnosed with BPD -- looking to engage with those that stand upon similar ground and see if there are any other commonalities (and trying to pinpoint where we diverge). I am conflicted because I have been diagnosed with BPD for about six months, but the diagnosis still doesn't make complete sense. A lot of it fully resonates with what I experience -- in fact, all of it does. But I feel as though there are parts of me that the diagnosis does not touch, does not expose, and does not come anywhere close to explaining.

I experience, in rather heavy degrees, things that the borderline diagnosis does not whisper at. They scare me, and always have. They are scaring me more fully now because when I read all of your posts on this board, I get them, but there's this darkness behind all of it that relatively few others seem to experience. The intense emotions -- I get them. The abyss-esque empathy -- I get this. The sheer terror of abandonment -- I understand this. The complete repulsion of living in one's own skin -- I know this. But there is something else, as well. Something that seems to cancel all of that out.

It's... like... there are two of me. Which may be the epitome of borderline splitting, I don't know. But it feels as though there is one part of me that is a deeply feeling, deeply emotional, and deeply empathetic individual. And then, existing in perfect tandem, is the other part of me -- the part of me that, even as I witness someone's heartbroken tears and fully recognize the deep anguish behind them, doesn't, ultimately, give a flying f*ck. The part of me that 100% relishes pain and suffering. The part of me that consistently experiences homicidal ideation. The part of me that could stand laughing in the middle of the apocalypse, waiting to unleash everything I've kept suppressed -- all of my hidden desires -- because lawlessness would prevail and I could finally have what I have desired for so long. I understand the point of the laws in our society. But I rarely ever find the deeds that require their enactments ever wrong. I understand that society at large finds those deeds to be wrong, and I respect the laws because of this. But to say that the acts are wrong? I'm usually in full disagreement.

When I read your posts, I feel your pain. But, ultimately, your pain has no meaning. In fact, it is so meaningless that I can find pleasure in it. I am the person that can hold your hand as you cry, fully understanding your reasons (or, at least, thinking that I do), and still be unconcerned. Untouched. How can this be?

I know the dangers of pigeon-holing oneself into a diagnosis, and I know that a diagnosis should never be used as a self-defining label. But a diagnosis should be used to identify problems with living, and it should be able to pinpoint the areas of limitation and be able to provide a path with which to move away from those limitations.

A while back, a therapist brought up the mildly unpleasant suggestion that I have ASPD traits (misanthropy, philosophical lawlessness, lack of "classical" empathy). She thought that my world view was similar to that of the classical definition of psychopathy, but assured me that there was nothing inherently wrong with it because I understood the ramifications of ignoring it. But the problem is -- how can asociality and empathy co-exist? Maybe I don't have empathy at all? Understanding someone's pain (even if you feel it like it is happening to you) and caring about it, are, ultimately, two different things. I don't think I care. At all.

I know there are a limited number of you that have discussed antisocial feelings/thoughts/behaviours (the ones that currently come to mind are ajrocker and AliceWonders), and I would like to know how you think those thoughts and behaviours fit into the BPD diagnosis. Because I feel broken, and strange. I hate that I can understand pain for its darkness, and relish it for that same darkness. I worry that the lines may, one day, not be so distinct. They are becoming less clear cut with each passing day.

In my opinion, biologically speaking, BPD and ASPD, as NPD and HPD, are part of the same disorder.
They all have several common traits, differing here and there and often an individual will have traits of all of them depending on where and when they are in their lives.

Charles Manson, for example: Abandoned, living a broken and nasty family life as a kid. Always seeking approval and belonging, always feeling utterly rejected. Grew up as an outsider, but one that is very willing to engage with people. Almost a hunger.
He was completely able to feel everyone's emotions and adopt behaviors and philosophies from his current group rather quickly. He also was very manipulative and controling. He was perfectly able able to empathize with people and gain their trust, but then when opportunity/necessity showed, he was now very able to "strike from within". Very BPD, isn't it?

He adored and craved attention. He wanted to be a musician, learned the guitar. Believed he was going to be a success and everyone wanted to hear what he had to say. "Look at me, people, I am Charles Manson and I have a message and something you all want! I AM SOMETHING YOU ALL NEED AND WANT, LOOK.AT.ME.". Bit HPD, isn't it?

That attention craving became real attention. That attention, a following. That following, power. All those people adoring and doing what he told them. Felt like energy. Like he was being fed and the more he "ate", the more powerful he felt. He was god and the Manson family his supply. All being extensions of his desires and specially his pain. Now he was on top, he had everything he always needed and he wouldn't lose it. But as most things projected out of sheer theatrics and manipulation, it had huge holes. So he had to do something to prevent his supply from going away. Isn't that the NPD's dream and modus operandi perfectly realized?

It is pretty clear this is a man who is able to do anything to get what he wants, is all out for himself. He has a lot of emotional intensity, a lot of aggression and unpleasant feelings surround this man - he is not in good terms with humanity or his own humanity. Grandiose thoughts, no REAL connection to humanity, no respect for human law, and a sheer desperation/suffering that feels like a void that will never be filled, which is almost unexplainable in it's nature. So why not kill? Why not anything? No regard for anything to mantain what he values for his selfish needs, being able to commit any crime to get what he wants. Very much ASPD, don't you agree?


So, as you can see, Charles Manson was only diagnosed as NPD and ASPD as far as I know, but he clearly had BPD and HPD behaviors. BPD, HPD, NPD and ASPD are very related and can be considered the same disorder, some people manifest differently due to individual environmental and biological make ups. Mental illness usually go like this. They call it a "spectrum".

So don't worry about "fitting" a diagnosis completely. Nobody is 100% anything and most don't belong to one diagnosis. The DSM stuff is mostly educational so doctors know what to spot, as symptoms is all we can see and try to manage.

And by the way: BPDs are psychopathic, but they still swing enormously to more empathetic behaviors. And those swings will almost always be genuine even to the BPD. BPD have extreme intensity of emotion and a very strong lack of identity/need to be someone else might make one BPD feel/act like he is two hundred and fifty eight different people in a span of 48 hours.

twistednerve wrote:In my opinion, biologically speaking, BPD and ASPD, as NPD and HPD, are part of the same disorder.
They all have several common traits, differing here and there and often an individual will have traits of all of them depending on where and when they are in their lives.

Have you read the DSM IV?

The human mind is so complex. One pwBPD is going to be different than another diagnosed pwBPD. There is so much to take into consideration with a particular personality disorder. According to the DSM IV, there are different types of BPD. And even then, you have to take the person's personality into account. Personality disorders may be biological but they can also be environmental.

Charles Manson is thought to have ASPD. Some have even suggested he also has Schizophrenia and is Bipolar. But I have never come across any information that suggests he has BPD.

I’d have to agree with a lot of people’s experiences here. From seeking treatment to date and from learning through this forum I’ve been able to finally understand the need to appreciate variation. Even if you could entirely explain your experience within the framework of “just” BPD, there is a huge amount of variation within that diagnosis alone.

Then when you look at it within the context of PD in general, there is a huge amount of overlap. When I did personality testing/clinical interviews I scored highest on BPD, but then also on NPD (I can have quite a sense of superiority at times), ASPD (I was very physically aggressive/violent as a teenager, but that behaviour is now hidden under the surface), avoidant and dependent (which both fit into the BPD thing of intense attachment, followed by withdrawal and generally putting on a surface show for others). In terms of treatment, it makes the most sense to me to follow the BPD direction and that is what I’m doing.

But I still have to acknowledge all the other things in order to really understand how I think. It’s something I’ve only started to appreciate in the last 6 months. I think I’ve become so trained to hide my true thinking patterns under the surface and present a “good” person to the outside world. When people say I’m a “good” person I wholeheartedly disagree, mostly because they are never aware of the darker thoughts I have.

Empathy wise, I think I can often be totally lacking in real empathy. I don’t experience a lot of emotional empathy, where you can actually “feel” the pain of another person. I would say the only times I experience that is when I’ve idealised someone, become attached to them. But when I think about it, it’s based a lot on what is in it for me. If that person lets me down, empathy can be non-existent. In fact, I might even like to see them be hurt at times. Then, when the attachment is no more, I couldn’t care less about them. With acquaintances or even friends, empathy is more cognitive. I know I’m supposed to be (or act) concerned, so I do. But there is no feeling there, no real care and concern.

I think there is some truth for me to idea that you can be in denial of these things, because you want to believe you are a good person. Hey, everyone tries to tell you continually you are a good person, because it’s so BPD to think you are “evil” at times. I don’t think I’m evil, but I’m also pretty lacking in empathy and concern for others a lot of time. Self-interest underlies a lot of what I do. Acknowledging that is definitely helpful.

AngelTears wrote:

twistednerve wrote:In my opinion, biologically speaking, BPD and ASPD, as NPD and HPD, are part of the same disorder.
They all have several common traits, differing here and there and often an individual will have traits of all of them depending on where and when they are in their lives.

Have you read the DSM IV?

The human mind is so complex. One pwBPD is going to be different than another diagnosed pwBPD. There is so much to take into consideration with a particular personality disorder. According to the DSM IV, there are different types of BPD. And even then, you have to take the person's personality into account. Personality disorders may be biological but they can also be environmental.

Charles Manson is thought to have ASPD. Some have even suggested he also has Schizophrenia and is Bipolar. But I have never come across any information that suggests he has BPD.

I agree with you. The DSM isn't accurate at all when it comes to pinpoint an actual disorder, "biologically, causally" speaking. It describes symptoms and puts it on clusters under labels when these symptoms tend to co-occur. But until better research comes out and we find tests, we're still trying to pinpoint what's wrong with a computer by observing from the outside the erratic behavior of the operational system. Really lame.

Most people present symptoms of many different disorders, usually. The DSM just teaches people/doctors what to try to spot. Doesn't mean anyone will be 100% of this or that. You could estimate most people fall under 40% of at least 3 different disorders.

Does it mean said person has all disorders? Biologically and causally speaking? Maybe yes... Or maybe not.

Mental illness has that "domino effect", specially when left untreated for many years. Have you seen studies of the damage mania can cause to the brain? Stress from depression and anxiety are like dipping your brain in a bowl of toxic sludge, too. One afflicted system messes with the other, or actually damages other stuff on the long run.

And there are wrong diagnosis and "label happy" clinicians that only take into account scattered details and put the whole, entire, huge label on the patient. I see that happening way more often in the USA as of late than it used to be according to doctors I've met here who studies there for a period of time a few decades ago. Here in Brazil, most experienced psychiatrists are approach mainly symptoms and really think is pointless for a patient to know if he has a disorder or not, most of the times, as 100%ers are rare.

Example of bad diagnosis:
Someone has a diagnosis of Depression, Anxiety, BPD, ASPD and OCD, in all reality this person can just have "something" more bipolarish and all the rest are being wrongfully attributed to something else bipolar is triggering. So, even with syptoms from many disorders, this specific individual might have just one. After all, mania often causes anxiety. Anxiety usually causes OCD. The rapid mood swings could be just bipolar, and not BPD. Mania also comes with psychosis often. Why is this person was diagnosed ASPD? Oh yeah, he was in a mixed state and vandalized several places in his community out of revenge for some quasi-psychotic reason, but this guy remained perfectly articulate and showed strong signs of anger and no remorse - it's very common for manics to behave with anger and no empathy.
But then some more intuitive psychitrist who evaluated him thoroughly prescribes to this guy lamotrigine + lithium + low dose trifluoperazine combo, voilá, he gets much better. He guessed it had more of a bipolar nature to it. If this guy kept being diagnosed as the first mentioned above, he would most likely kept being prescribed "mainly" psychotherapy, antidepressants, antidepressants and benzos. These medications can help anxiety, OCD, impulsive behavior and the depression briefly, but they will come back with a vengeance if a person, biologically speaking, is bipolar spectrum.

"Disordered" personalities can be environmental, I agree. however, those aren't, I think. They repeat itself since early childhood across many different human populations and are so alike. Many other things point to personality disorders being caused by hormonal problems since birth being the culprit - we won't know this for a few decades or more, I believe.
Although I do agree the brain can certainly be conditioned to behave such as them and "normal" people can have those behaviors of course. We're not all very different. I don't think we have a very ample range of behaviors and feelings... "We can arrange new music, but the instruments don't change much", so to speak.

If I sounded contradictory in this post - I am. I do agree very much with you regarding that an individual is so unique, that no matter what diagnosis he has, it wil most likely be different from someone else "as a whole". And more likely to respond differently to treatment, specially when it comes to medication. A person can take, say, alprazolam and feel sleepy, lethargic and depressed. Another can take it and feel chatty, agitated and super happy. Possibilities are endless, I'm glad we have so many options.

However, I don't believe we humans differ thaaaat much on what we CAN feel and do. And I think psychiatry is doing a good job at grouping clusters of symptoms into labels, to help guide them to better treatment. Although, in my opinion DSM V sucked immensely. This might sound stupid, but I do believe this happened greatly because people are getting less and less intuitive and personable, and relying more on what data than gut feeling, observations and shared experience.

And I still say BPD, HPD, ASPD and NPD are all different manifestations of the same disorder, and one who has BPD, for example, more prominent, will exhibit core behaviors of any of the other 3 throughout his life. Not to mention the stuff they already share.

Cluster B is about psychopathy, and psychopaths aren't robots with no emotion - or maybe some are, maybe we're talking about distinct disorders.

Cluster Bs have emotions and actually are pretty intense. They also perceive others emotions QUITE well, usually. But they do a poor job actually regulating their own - they're more likely to hide it/pretend to feel something else. Actors (who, too often, believe their current part is real). And they disrespect other people's emotions and boundaries, by attacking or manipulating.
So the main thing you should spot on these people is a pervasive and frequent lack of empathy and disregard for other people's boundaries and emotions, which can manifest itself in several ways. AND difficulty in regulating their own emotions. This can be tricky, as on the outside that often isn't apparent. "Acting" is very much innate to many of these people.
And there's the inflexibility of personality: most people adapt to their environment and other people around them mostly unconsciouslly, creating harmony. PDs have a severe difficulty not repeat the same behaviors and be more likely to demand/impose their pre-existent needs and opinions in a way that can subtle but more severe than the regular individual.

Without the lack of empathy, weak identity, inflexibility of personality and "most often under the surface" dysregulation of emotion being there, I wouldn't label a person with a Cluster B disorder.