BPD: unconscious manipulation?

New here. Hi.

My exboyfriend who has BPD is a very affective manipulator. When I say affective I mean he has the capability to manipulate anyone and everyone, even those that recognize it.

As his exgirlfriend who put up with his abuse for three years, I am one of of those people. My question is, when they are manipulative... when they play the mind-games, when they make every attempt to control your actions, thoughts, emotions and then use them to their advantage, is it really deliberate and conscious? Do they internalize and rationalize why they are treating someone this way or is it done on such an unconscious level since childhood as it's really just a familiar way of coping? I know Borderlines lack a great deal of empathy but is it safe to say that in most cases they are AWARE of the hurt they cause, just don't care to understand HOW it affects that other person nor have any interest in changing that behavior? I am so confused.

Currently my exboyfriend has reappeared in my life after a year apart and has hinted about wanting to get back together. I have no idea why. Whenever he shows the slightest bit of vulnerability and interest and whenever I show HIM the slightest bit of attention, he withdraws and pulls away but does it in a very passive manner. When I was IN the relationship it was more passive-aggressive and sometimes just plain aggressive. So now once he withdraws I too pull-away and I think this in turn scares him... that whole imagined abandonment thing. Then in desperation he latches on and becomes needy to gain my love back. Once I show it, he withdraws again and the cycle continues. Madness! I wonder if he is deliberately manipulating me in his attempt to gain control, or if it's just the only real way he knows how to relate to those he is the closest to? Does he truly want to get back together or is he just playing this silly game of cat and mouse?

Thank you for listening. I would love some insight. I too suffer from abandonment issues and childhood neglect but I do not believe that I experience their effects on the same level as he does.

Xecret wrote:when they play the mind-games, when they make every attempt to control your actions, thoughts, emotions and then use them to their advantage, is it really deliberate and conscious

I can't speak for everyone, but when I do it, I'm conscious of it and it's thought out. I've become good at it.

I know Borderlines lack a great deal of empathy

I don't believe that's true for all of them. There's a thread here where some Borderlines speak of having more empathy than others. borderline-personality/topic52919.html <-this one

So now once he withdraws I too pull-away and I think this in turn scares him... that whole imagined abandonment thing. Then in desperation he latches on and becomes needy to gain my love back. Once I show it, he withdraws again and the cycle continues. Madness! I wonder if he is deliberately manipulating me in his attempt to gain control, or if it's just the only real way he knows how to relate to those he is the closest to? Does he truly want to get back together or is he just playing this silly game of cat and mouse?

I wouldn't call it a game, I would call it being driven by fear (even if it's imagined) Fear of abandonment is kind of complicated...the best way I can explain it is that when I feel that the person is leaving, I desperately try to get them to stay, but when they come back and act like they care, that also scares me because I don't want to believe it or I keep feeling like I'm going to lose them, so I drift away from them before they can hurt/leave me. It does seem like control, but I don't think it's to hurt you, I think it's because of the intense fear of abandonment.

Fascinating. Seriously. I am just now gaining some understanding of what it is like to live with this disorder as I had lived with someone who "suffers" from it for over three years. I have never been more aware of why my ex was who he was when he was with me and why I responded the way that I did. On the other hand, it is SO complex that even though I have more insight it just leads to more and more questions while I try to analyze the details to the point of not understanding it at all! Also, his current persistent manipulation is further proof that it is extremely hard behavior to change.

In addition to the fear you have of others abandoning you, do you think that you withdraw from them because you don't feel yourself deserving of the love and attention they provide once you earn it? Might you leave because you see them as weak, as if there is something wrong with them because you feel as though you are not capable of being loved (real love, not the made up stuff) due to possible childhood abuse and neglect? Sorry if this is too personal but I am sincerely interested. If this doesn't apply to you personally, do you know if this a common occurrence with Borderlines?

Xecret wrote:In addition to the fear you have of others abandoning you, do you think that you withdraw from them because you don't feel yourself deserving of the love and attention they provide once you earn it?

Sometimes. I view myself as a very defective individual.

Might you leave because you see them as weak, as if there is something wrong with them because you feel as though you are not capable of being loved (real love, not the made up stuff) due to possible childhood abuse and neglect?

I have a hard time believing they are telling the truth, that they really love me or care about me because of past events, so that can get in the way, causing me to pull further away from them. I want to be able to trust them and I don't mean to hurt them, it just happens so naturally now.

Like Brokenopen I can only speak for myself. When I’m in the moment I feel I’m being sincere. I can quickly rationalize why I might push someone away or try to pull them closer. The emotions I experience are very intense and very real, so it doesn’t feel as though I’m pulling strings or playing a game. It’s only when the emotional turbulence has subsided that I’m able to look back and acknowledge that I was being unreasonable/manipulative/etc. Sometimes I think it’s those intensified feelings that blind me to the obvious or the rational.

There have been a few occasions where I have purposely manipulated others or engaged in a game of cat and mouse. Some of that was encouraged by an immature need for attention and some of that was encouraged by a firm belief that bad people deserved to be jerked around. The latter was reserved for a specific context and not something I do in my regular day to day life.

I have to share the sentiment that I feel like a defective individual.

Brokenopen, you mentioned that you 1) have a hard time believing someone and 2) don't want to believe someone. Do you think that deep down you do want to believe them but because of past events and the notion that you are a defective human being, are never truly able? Looking back or at the present, have either of you been able to trust someone completely? Or is there this constant feeling that something will go wrong eventually/they will leave you/the relationship (romantic or familial) is imminently doomed so you don't allow yourself to to be subject to such vulnerability?

Because of typical BPD patterns, do you typically go into a romantic relationship knowing that it will not last? Since the fear of being alone is worse, is it just the better option even though you are aware that eventually this person will leave you or you will leave them?

Lots of questions, sorry if this seems like too much to respond to.

I don't mind answering the questions, I think it's important to understand all types of mental illnesses from the point of view of people that have them and live with them on a daily basis.

Xecret wrote:Do you think that deep down you do want to believe them but because of past events and the notion that you are a defective human being, are never truly able?

I really do want to trust people, but there is one event in particular that screwed that up so much for me. I loved someone with all my heart and they lied to me. It hurt so much that I don't ever want to experience that again..but in turn, it's costing me both new and established friendships/relationships and the like. That also hurts, but I'd rather be alone than feel the intense aching that I felt when that person hurt me.

Looking back or at the present, have either of you been able to trust someone completely?

There was one person (that's the one I'm speaking of in the above answer), but that completely backfired. After that, I was starting to feel like I could trust a woman that I worked with. That was huge for me because I didn't trust anyone even a little bit after the guy that lied to me, but there it was...and I got kicked in the face again. I have this mentality now where it's like "forget love, forget friends, it's not worth it" because I'm always wondering if I'm going to get hurt again, if they are going to care as much as I do, if they are going to prefer someone over me, if I'm good enough, etc...it just turns into a whole bunch of self-doubt and worries. I realize how sad that is and what kind of life that I'm going to live, but the fear is so, so intense that I will take that risk. I don't know if I will ever trust again as much as I hate saying that.

Or is there this constant feeling that something will go wrong eventually/they will leave you/the relationship (romantic or familial) is imminently doomed so you don't allow yourself to to be subject to such vulnerability?

Definitely.

Because of typical BPD patterns, do you typically go into a romantic relationship knowing that it will not last?

I haven't had a real relationship in ten years or more...but if I were to be in one, I'm sure that's how I would feel. When I start feeling too content, then I'm afraid things will go wrong. Therefore, I'm always on guard emotionally.

Since the fear of being alone is worse, is it just the better option even though you are aware that eventually this person will leave you or you will leave them?

It can be the better option because of that, yes.

God this explains a lot.
If it's a disorder my sister has, how can this manipulation be conscious and thought out? I mean how can you blame something on a mental disorder when you know exactly what you're doing and have planned it in advance?

Xecret wrote:Might you leave because you see them as weak, as if there is something wrong with them because you feel as though you are not capable of being loved

This applies for me, not the leaving part - but thinking there is something wrong with someone if they like me.
I fall in "love" very easily - idealizing practical strangers - but whenever the feelings are reciprocated I suddenly view the person as less intelligent - or don't like them as much, 'cause how could they like me?
it's like that old marx quote about not wanting to be part of a club who'd have someone like you as a member.

I'd argue very much on the empathy front - I'd like to think of myself as a very empathetic person - though in reality, I believe that I'm often not and I think it's very much related to the above point. Subconsciously, it's like this: I'm such a bad/wrong/defective/ugly/boring person, that surely my actions don't affect anyone, only lower their opinion of me - especially with romantic relationships - say I split black or what to leave before they leave or whatever - it's as if I genuinely don't think leaving someone will affect them, they don't really like me anyway, so they won't care if I don't love them....

As for the original question about manipulation - I genuinely have never consciously done this. Which is a pretty scary thought, because all my past relationships have revolved around a manipulation on my part that I wasn't even aware of. I can't recall ever been called manipulative in an aggressive way - but a strange thing is that recently someone I hadn't known long(a guy) - teased that I was manipulative, apparently a few of us were having a conversation and they asked if I was okay (In hindsight feeling left out was written all over my face) - and I pouted and said I didn't feel well and was thirsty - and the guy bought me a drink. I didn't even realize I'd done this until later on something very similar happened - I was being all pouty and "cute" and the guy went out of his way to do something for me. I know this is a completely watered down version of the very distressing manipulation that can happen - but if something like that can happen at such a low scale, with me being completely unaware of doing it - my memory is even bad of the night - i think I was sad and lonely so was pretty much a little drunk and dissociate - thus living in my own world and not really noticing what was happening around me, or stopping to think (i only clicked back into reality when he jokingly called me manipulative - then i got upset and he had to convince me i was joking and compliment me a million times 'til i felt okay) - Sorry, bit of a ramble - point I'm trying to make is that for me personally I'm completely oblivious to being manipulative, even on a tiny scale so I dread to think what happens in relationships. I genuinely don't remember - I've blocked them all out. It's very scary for me. As though I'm not real, and the boys weren't real.

LazyOCD wrote:If it's a disorder my sister has, how can this manipulation be conscious and thought out?

I don't think it's always thought out. At least not for everyone.

Edit: Here's a line from something I just read about Borderlines and I agree with when it comes to myself:
"They may be fully aware that their behavior is destructive, but feel unable to change it."

So if some Borderlines are aware of that, they could be aware of being manipulative, I would imagine. I can only speak for myself, as I said.