Dazed,hurt,confused.. Histrionic - Borderline?

Kevin, you write: ///I do understand the thought process that there is an inner child in control...///
As I understand it, the problem is not that her inner child is in control -- that is true for all of us -- but, rather, that her inner child's emotional development is frozen at age three instead of the more mature level that we nonBPDs reach. For all human beings, it seems true that the inner child makes at least 90% (if not 99%) of the important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood that simple idea. And it took me 12 years to do it.

What happened was that I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly "family group" meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psychologist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Nevermind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and nevermind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year. The psychologist was greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would nearly always win. But I just could not swallow that notion.

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it dawned on me one night why he had to be right. The child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of what is fun and what is not fun. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in my child's lap. This is why, as I tried to explain above, I have spent the past three years trying to persuade my child that my adult views of my ex's illness are correct. If I were to fail in that effort, I would remain stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my child is calling the shots. It's amazing, isn't it, how smart a man can be when he reaches 50.

///I started suspecting that maybe these truly werent passions of hers.. just doing the mirroring..///
Exactly. So it is not surprising that she eventually revealed her disinterest in those activities. But you will be hard pressed to discover any passions she has on her own. Because she has a weak unstable sense of who she is, she likely has no consistent passion for any hobbies. That is why BPDs tend to be collectors, not doers. My ex, for example, had spent $5,000 on sewing equipment and another $6,000 on bolts of fabric but had sewn only three small things in 15 years. All that paraphernalia, which she still has in her apt., apparently helps give her a sense of identity.

///He made the diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder.///
You really struck gold with that counselor. If my experience is any guide, that is unlikely to occur again if you seek treatment for your girlfriend. I spent over $200,000 taking my ex to six therapists over 15 years. Not one of them mentioned BPD. Nevermind that my ex strongly exhibits all nine BPD traits. The closest any of them got to "BPD" was telling me she "has PTSD" and "has a thought disorder." Duh. Well, yes, a thought disorder called BPD.

There likely are several reasons for the nondisclosure. For one thing, several therapists were fairly inexperienced and were snowed by the act my ex put on. For another, therapists seem inclined to label the disorder "PTSD" because most insurance companies will not cover BPD. Moreover, the therapists must know that the patient likely will terminate treatment on hear such a diagnosis, because BPDs usually find it too painful to recognize the existence of such a flaw. That is why I have such strong admiration for the BPD sufferers on this forum who have had the strength and courage to cross that pain threshold and actively pursue healing through a process of self awareness.

///Hopefully my posts back to you help you in some way as well.///
Absolutely. As I explained above, you are helping me heal too. I know because, as I was reading your last post, I caught a little boy reading over my shoulder. He said to tell you "hello." And he said he hopes "you won't try to marry another three year old." But, then, it's now so late at night that I may be a little confused. He may have intended that last remark for me.

Good point, Downtown. I think I've been using the term co-dependent incorrectly - I've been meaning it as "willing to put up with more abuse than is healthy, in order to try and save someone you care about". As you say, its real meaning is closer to "needs to be in the role of rescuer so much that they will subtly sabotage any genuine improvements in their 'rescuee' so as to keep that role".

As for the aim of 'living happily ever after' if a cure was possible, I'd like to try it, as I bet we all would. It's true that we're all still in search of the right ingredients for pudding, to continue your metaphor, but knowing that I like the ingredients, I can't see why I wouldn't like it once it's made. Also, I know that I'm willing to do as much work as is needed to be a good partner, so assuming that I'm not an incurable basket-case (which I think is a safe assumption), I hope to avoid problems like this in future relationships. At any rate, I know that there is *some* chance of living happily ever after with a mentally healthy woman, whereas there's no chance that I can live a happy stable life with an undiagnosed PD partner.

I'm glad you found my old posts interesting, and I certainly feel I'm making progress personally so I'm happy to hear it's not all just in my head. Even if we split, I'll go into my next relationship with a far better picture of what I'm looking for, what I can give, and what is and isn't fair in terms of personal and relationship boundaries. I guess I'm still interested in HPD because all of her initial symptoms were very much in line with HPD, even though in the last few months she's been showing increasingly borderline traits. I'm sorry to say you read right, we lost our child last year. I believe that the shock is what caused her to start acting more borderline and less histrionic.

Edit: Just read your second post. The thing about your inner child is so true! You can have all the logic in the world but when it comes down to it, often what really makes your mind up is that part of you saying "wheee that sounds fun" or "no way, boring!" I think a large part of leading a happy life is finding the balance between keeping that fun alive and meeting your responsibilities.

DC...

I think this is the hardest part to grasp in all this, is seeing the inner child taking control emotionally. I do see the crazy things that do support that though.. But, you also see this totally different person.. She is very social,fantastic around people,extremely intelligent,great personality (although I know it is a show).. people are drawn to her. She does a lot of networking as she works independently, and people are just magnetized to her, although, she always came back with a lot more business cards from men than women. Not too long ago she even did a talk at one of these networking events and thrived on it.. On first introductions, people just love her.. So, it is so hard to mix the two, almost doesn't make sense.. although I do know it to be true. I guess that is why we are all on here making reason out of this..Now I am wondering how screwed up I am if I am so codependent for women like this.. ugh.. Just gets better.. lol

You made reference to my ex's (wife and girlfriend) not having any REAL interests or passions of their own, that they mirror ours and take them on because of lack of identity. I find this to be very true, especially with my ex wife. She was in left field, couldn't believe some of the things she tried taking on in my absence.. She was never real athletic, but went out and spent $150.00 on 3 tennis rackets so she and the kids would have something to do with their time. This was the summer we were separated. That lasted a week and the tennis rackets have never been touched since. One thing my ex wife admitted to was that she was OCD like her mother. She said "You want to know why I am always walking, or doing something?, that is because I don't want to sit and bounce my leg up and down and bite my nails down to nothing like my f.....mother does..". " I inherited my mother's f-------- OCD.." When she snapped and told me she wanted out, she was constantly out walking... every moment she had.. She was an avid reader, would read couple books a week, she wouldn't pick-up a book, she said she can't concentrate long enough to sit and read. As I looked back through it all, many things started truly making sense (the past 5 years especially). She was CONSTANTLY re-arranging furniture.. and painting the house. There are rooms in her house right now that she has changed paint color on 4 times in the last 2 years. Her bedroom especially.. Some of the other crazy things she would tell me were, "I see my dad when I see you, and I can't explain it." There was something she saw in me that triggered something in her past with her father. Again, this happened all in this same time she snapped. When she first snapped, she told me it wasn't about me, it was something wrong with her.. she had to figure it out on her own. She asked if I would get out for 2-3 months, to help her anxiety (because she kept seeing her dad).. So, I told her I would give her a month, but that she had to see her doctor. Well, she went.. he gave her some lexapro for her anxiety.. but she went off it a week later. So. it did nothing. Well, my pastor told me not to leave the house, he said he has been doing marriage counseling for 30 years, he said the statistics are against me.. he felt she would not accept me back into the house.. Boy, was he right on that one. My counselor said the same thing.. My ex wife rarely ever used profanity too.. She was using the F Bombs like water.. and she even admitted it. She said she was cussing like a drunken sailor and couldn't help it. Anyway, once I got out of the house (3 months), she finally came and told me it was definitely over and she didnt want to be my wife anymore. I got an apartment, and that is when she really changed from "It's me not you" to "You are an evil husband,bad father,bad husband.. etc". Then she wanted to destroy me.. I believe the abandonment kicked in when I moved into the apartment, I think that is when it really hit her that she was on her own. I believe there was someone else though, found the Home schedule written down of the Bengals games I went to (season tickets). I didn't know what it was at first, just a crumpled up piece of paper with dates on it.. Then I matched the dates to their schedule.. I confronted her on it, she just stammered around for something to say and then just told me she wanted to know when I wasn't going to be around the house so she could have piece of mind.. I of course knew better, and knew there was something else going on.. As far as my girlfriend, you are right.. not interests of her own either.. she just wanted excitement all the time... Loved to dance (provactively), love to showboat with her fancy clothes and show as much cleavage as I would tolerate.. (those were some of our battles). She loved to go braless with her breast implants.. Only her shirts were already revealing.. Much of our time was filled with sexual gestures on her part too... Sex was huge to her... If we went to bed without sex, she took it personal most of the time. Guess if she had a passion, that was it..

Yes, I had an experienced Christian Counselor, he had been doing it 30 years. But, I credit a lot of this to God's intervention too. God was huge in all this for me, he was my rock through it all. Really changed my life.. Anyways, my counselor would also talk about our relationship with God in our meetings too, and would give Christian advice as well. He asked me if I had ever fasted? Only for Wrestling in HS was my response.. lol He said that many people fast, brings them even closer to the Lord and he will talk to you.. So, at that point.. I was up for anything. I had been praying to the Lord to give me the wisdom to KNOW what was going on with my wife. I knew something was terribly wrong with her of course, I was looking for answers. Well, I fasted for 4 days, just had a few swallows of OJ now and then to take edge of my Hypoglycemia. On the 3rd day of fasting, incredible things started happening. I was doing a lot of reading (I always hated reading, and I LOVED it now), I was reading two Christian books a week, as well as the Bible daily. Things were bouncing off the pages at me, he truly was talking to me.. On that 3rd day, I went in for my weekly counseling appt.. It was then, that my counselor offered his BPD evaluation on my ex wife. When I went home and read up on it, I was floored.. Not only did it fit like a glove, but God was preparing me as well with the signs he had been telling me through my reading. It was truely an incredible experience.. So every Thanksgiving week, I fast for four days...That week meant a lot to me spiritually.. God talked to me more in that 6 month stretch than he has my entire life, I was prime for the picking because I was completely broken and open for him to come into my heart. The Church has been huge for me, and has changed my life so much.. So, can't say it was all for nothing. My rewards were so much greater.. The first Sunday (next morning) after my ex wife had told me she was wanting out, we went to church. On the big screens at Church, up pops up a slide and it says "Is you're marriage shattered" with a broken glass on the screen. We both just turned and looked at each other. The sermon was hand written for us both (it seemed).. I was walking out of the church, (and we only went once every couple months at the time) and the pastor greeted me on the way out.. He is normally a very high energy spunky man, and I had never been formally introduced to him.. He reached out and shook my hand and held it and said "Jesus love you!".... the entire time looking dead in my eyes.. It was all I could do to get out of the church without breaking down. That morning before church, I had re-committed my life to him again on my knees in our back yard.. shattered... I have a bracelet I wear today with the date of that day on it. with WWJD (What would Jesus do?" on it.. It is a constant reminder of what he means to me, and who I am.. Guess it is also a good accountability symbol.

Sorry for the preaching, but I also know how important it is for God to get involved with BPD's and NON BPD's.. He can do anything he wants to do.. I will end with this though.. My pastor did a sermon a while back, and he talked about why God allows us to experience pain? If he is so powerful, then why not come in and take that pain away..? He said this.. "God allows us to feel pain, because it separates us from our Worldy cares, and brings us back to him..where we need to be in the first place." Makes so much sense.. I know without a shadow of a doubt, there is a God.. He is real, I have talked with him more than once..

DC, you are right about this forum... it does help to vent and talk.. You are a wise man!! Thank you..

Your friend..


PS > Please forgive me for jumping around so much too.. I just type it as it comes to me sometimes..

Tattered, am so sorry to learn that I did read your post correctly. I cannot imagine what it would be like losing a child and then going through a separation with your wife, all nearly at the same time. You apparently are a much stronger man than I. As to "codependency," it apparently does not apply to us as the term is conventionally used, i.e., to describe the controlling behavior of an enabler. There is much controversy surrounding the term, especially since we live in a society that largely admires the Christian notion of "turning your left cheek" when struck on the right so you can be struck again.

Kevin (Hurt32), you say that people "are just magnetized to her" when describing your exGF. My ex is that way. I was always so proud of how gracious and warm she is around complete strangers. She has that childlike warmth that is almost tangible when you meet her. She can put people at ease immediately because she comes across as non-threatening and non-judgemental. And she always seems to genuinely like people. Because her BPD is high functioning, the trouble only starts when people become a close friend, at which time they become a threat to her with respect to intimacy and -- at the other extreme -- abandonment. Consequently, it has been hard for her to hold onto any close friends other than those she rarely sees because they live so far away.

Moreover, this wonderful feature of her personality (i.e., the warmth and graciousness) came back to bite me when we separated. As BPDs usually do, she split me black and said vicious things about me to all our mutual friends, none of whom know she has BPD. Indeed, none of them even know what it is. So, of course, I lost all our mutual friends. I also lost 5 adult stepchildren and 5 grandkids whom I dearly love. That was three years ago. After two years went by, one of the stepchildren and her kids (i.e., 3 of my grandkids) re-entered my life when she started realizing that not all is right with her mother.

Tattered-

I too am sorry to hear of your losses... I feel sorry for myself a lot, but then I see situations such as yours and realize my life isn't so bad afterall, could be a lot worse. Can't imagine losing any of my children, my heart goes out to you.. I will keep you in my prayers as well. I know how hard it was to grieve the loss of my marriage, and now the loss of another relationship.. can't imagine going through that and the loss that you endured.. May God give you peace and comfort..

DC-

I know all about lost friendships as well. She did the same thing to mutual friends of ours. Two couples that were in our wedding now don't speak to me. Sadly, I know it is only their wives in control of the situation, I see it in their eyes when I see them. Can only imagine what my ex wife said about me. But, it is like you said.. eventually, it does come out. They can only hide their true colors so long and then other people start realizing there are a few screws loose. I have had numerous people in the church and the community come up to me and acknowledge the same.. We just need to keep our integrity and keep to ourselves, the rest will take care of itself..

As far as their friends, my x girlfriend did not have any close friends.. that was a HUGE red flag for me early on.. Could never figure that one out. I think a lot of it isn't always how they treat them, but rather how much they flirt around their spouse or boyfriends.. I think that is why they isolate her from the rest of the group.. they just didn't trust her.

Kevin, you wrote:

My x girlfriend did not have any close friends.. Could never figure that one out. I think a lot of it isn't always how they treat them, but rather how much they flirt around their spouse or boyfriends..

Yes, that sort of flirting would sure kill the friendship quickly. Yet, because your ex is very attractive, it seems unlikely she would be throwing herself at most friends' husbands, whom she would not find very attractive if they are ordinary looking. That is, having strong BPD traits does not imply that she is blind or lacking in taste. A more likely explanation for the complete absence of close friends is the threat (of intimacy and abandonment) that is created by any closeness. The engulfment caused by intimacy would result in her striking out with abusive words so as to get some breathing space. That could have driven many friends away. As to the others, she may have abandoned them herself in a preemptive manner to foreclose their abandoning her and to stop the pain of having to worry about it.

I think that is why they isolate her from the rest of the group.. they just didn't trust her.

If so, it seems that they were right. I learned the hard way that I cannot trust a person who is incapable of trusting me. I now know that such a person can turn against me at any time. That little lesson -- so transparent and obvious to others -- took me 15 years to learn. I had been through the push-me-away and pull-me-back with my ex a hundred times. On each occurrence, she would be pulling me back within a day and a half, if not much sooner. Consequently, I could not imagine that she would ever abandon me permanently but, of course, that is exactly what she did. It seems that her resentment of me grew each year as she started realizing that I could never fix her emptiness and make her happy. Was so sad seeing her slip away from me like that.

I wouldn't say my life is bad, in fact (for now) it's pretty good - my wife's acting a lot less 'crazy' which is a huge relief, she still has a lot of the borderline/histrionic traits but they're not at a damaging level. I'd say I've been through the fire, and the forge, and I'm stronger for it. Better able to hold my temper, you might say.

DowntownDC wrote:Yet, because your ex is very attractive, it seems unlikely she would be throwing herself at most friends' husbands, whom she would not find very attractive if they are ordinary looking. That is, having strong BPD traits does not imply that she is blind or lacking in taste.

Hmm, not convinced. The 'fan club' friends my wife finds tend to be fat shy guys with no prospects and severe social/emotional problems of their own. Maybe they're less threatening to her because she feels no physical attraction? Or they're just so far below her socially and physically that she knows they won't reject her? She 'throws herself at them' to the point where they start getting the message and responding, at which point she throttles it back to "now that we're good friends" and only goes back into flirt/seduce mode if it looks like their infatuation is dying out. It's like the HPD game, Lite. I thought this was just my imagination or paranoia until a friend reminded me of a time when her fan club friend was over and she came out in a skimpy, sexy outfit 'just to show me' and paraded around in front of him until his eyes were popping out.

He's now out of the picture, geographically - she still talks to him online but from hints I've picked up, he's losing interest now that he doesn't have her turning the charm on him in person. The way things are going, I'm happy to stay in the relationship. I've told her that if she brings in a new admirer, the relationship will be over, and she's acknowledged the fact. Three strikes, I'm out. The way I see it, either way I win. I'm now know where my boundaries lie between fair and unfair behaviour and I know I can walk away if it does come to that. And if it doesn't... well then we have a great future together!

DC/Tattered...

As always, thanks for posts.. Tattered, I experienced the same things with some guys that were unattractive.. I was in one of our short term break-ups with her at the time. I saw her talking back and forth on facebook with some overweight unattractive guy.. He was obviously flirting, and she was as well in her way (which I knew).. Once we got back together, she told me that she had gone over to his office that day to help try and solve a computer glitch he was having.. She said it was then she discovered he liked her.. she said he had a crush on her.. gave her a shirt he got on vacation too.. She bragged about this man being a good Christian man, sat down and listened to her spill her heart out to him, and how he told her to hand over her financial issues and everything else over to the Lord... and that she was now giving it all up to God.. She said if she loses her house and car, so be it.. Just like that.. I had been talking positively to her for months, told her financially I had her back... and this guy in one visit does all this.. Well, as I was saying.. we get back together... I am no longer the bad guy, and now this man that was such a good samaritan was nothing but a big,ugly,man acting like a boy with a boyhood crush towards her. She was constantly cutting on him, trying to avoid him, and steer away from him at network meetings.. This happened a lot with people she would be friend at these meetings.. But she truly had no close friends, her entire friend base consists of these people she sees at these networking events once a week or once very two weeks..

She always talked about this story (before I met her) of her modeling a white dress with red pockadots, red high heels,white gloves and a white hat at church for a church charity auction. Basically they were bidding on her, only that was all it really was.. a bid.. no services.. She told me this story 3-4 times.. Well, we go to a dinner at someone else's house from her church, 4 other couples there.. They start talking about the dress she wore at church, and the men are right on tune with her.. laughing, saying how nice she looked in it.. The wives all have a smug look on their face, forcing smiles out.. So, I suspect there was a lot of talk going on behind her back about the way she acted.

I have not talked with her since she left that evening before going to Florida with the man she met in an airport some 2 years ago. She told me that night that I would be fine... even brought up ex girlfriends of mine and told me to call them... She went through each one of them individually, asked about each of them directly. Don't know if she was just digging for info, or really wanted me to call them. Well, she told me that evening she didnt want to hurt me, but did tell me she was spending 10 days with this man in florida.. I was visibly upset with tears, but she showed no remorse or tears.. Just that I would be fine.. she promised... Few weeks before that I had taken her off my facebook, told her I did it so I wouldn't feel the need to check up on her.. I wanted to heal.. Well, that same day.. she changed her settings on facebook so ANYONE could come in and see her profile.. so she wanted me to be able to see it apparently... Well, I sent her an email today telling her that I found the other two items of hers and that I was going to be in her area this weekend. Asked her if it was ok if I just dropped the items off on her porch, she didnt have to be there. I told her I didnt want to surprise her for obvious reasons.. Well.. she has not contacted me.. and I KNOW she read the email because she lives on her computer.. So I dont know if she is really trying to ignore me, or trying to see how far I will go to get her attention? I did put two old girlfriends on my facebook account as friends, they had friended me over a month ago and ignored it for obvious reasons.. But, went ahead and accepted them. Well, out of curiousity I went in to see if her account was still public.. she has blocked me completely from seeing her facebook.. can't even find it in a search.. So, I don't know if this is what set her off or not..I guess I just wait it out...

One more thing.. I have been struggling with this.. There are times it hurts to the core when I start thinking about her.. She really had me reeled in pretty tight.. I miss her without a doubt.. I have been dating another lady, ironically she lives right down the road from my ex.. The anxiety is overwhelming at times when I drive to her house, because I am going the same route as my ex.. My heart starts racing and everything.. Anxiety is incredible.. Feel like I want to whip it into her developement and go see her.. I don't know if this is more the unconcious or concious in charge.. But it is real... Dating is helping, but I truly have no feelings at all for this other woman yet.. just numb.... ugh...

Dating is helping, but I truly have no feelings at all for this other woman yet.. just numb.... ugh...

Kevin, I'm surprised you feel like dating again so soon. You went from a hurtful breakup of your marriage into a 14 month relationship that also has hurt you. And it ended less than six weeks ago if I remember correctly. In my case, the end of my 15 year relationship left me not wanting to date for two years, during which time I did a lot of healing. So I started dating about a year ago and have been out with several women in their late 50's. When I meet them, I walk in looking like somebody's grandfather and they all look like somebody's grandmother. So it's not like we are going to have that instant lustful attraction that we experienced at a younger age. That is, the best we can hope for is to keep meeting so we have an opportunity to know the real person and eventually fall in love.

My ex is actually a few years older than the ladies I have been dating. With my ex, however, I had the passion and intensity only obtainable, I suppose, from an unstable woman. So I am frequently reminding myself that my goal must be mature love, not the exciting child-like love that really means "I need you" more than "I love you." Another advantage I had with my ex is that I had a well established template in my mind of what she looked like when I met her at 17 and various other ages. Hence, I rarely was able to see her the way she actually looks because I always superimposed that template onto her image. So I really don't like the fact that, with the new ladies, I have no youthful template to enjoy. Instead, I see them exactly as they are.

I sometimes wince when I see myself that way. Normally, there is no problem because 99 percent of the time I see myself head-on in a mirror and, of course, I have a template of my face that I superimpose, making me look ten years younger to myself. When I go buy pants, however, that template is useless. In order to see if they fit, I have to look in the 3-way mirror and, damm, I have no template at all for the side view. So there I am, seeing myself in my pure unadulterated state. I got to where I hated to buy pants -- a problem I solved, about five years ago, by always ordering them online from the same manufacturer every time. I'm sorry. What happened here? How did I end up talking about pants?

DC..

I guess you kind of answered the question for me on why I want to date already.. Kind of have that feeling that the clock is ticking.... I don't want to call it a race to find someone, but I do feel a little anxious.. I am in my middle 40's.. and a very loving,affectionate, compassionate man.. Really want to find that special woman and get on with my life.. I do feel a little needy right now, kind of helps mask the hurt of my loss too.. I don't know if it is an ego thing, or just someone to fill that void. I do know I want to find that special woman.. in a bad way.. You are right... I really never took a break after the loss of my 19 year marriage. I had a few temp relationships for 2-3 months at a time before I ended up in my 14 month relationship. These dating sites can be dangerous.. sometimes they just confuse you more.. I have been up front with the women I am dating, told them I am not ready for a relationship.. just want to date right now. The right thing would probably be to take an extended break.. I don't know.. ugh... The other thing that makes it difficult is a lot of these woman all become instantly attached to you... I feel sorry for a lot of them because it is obvious they have never been treated like a lady... they don't know what to do with themselves when you treat them special.. Sad really..