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really? what makes you eventually contact people again? and how long are you silent for? what goes through your head?

marylynn wrote:really? what makes you eventually contact people again? and how long are you silent for? what goes through your head?

Yes, really. What makes me contact someone again, is being willing to take the chance that may actually answer, or thinking that they will answer, or not feeling as anxious about not getting answered. I haven't used silence in a long time, and is horrible with time, so I wouldn't know. What goes through my head at times is, whoever doesn't believe me about certain things, is stupid people, who are mostly worthless. If my mom doesn't let me go somewhere with her, what goes through my mind is that she is a horrible person, who doesn't care about me at all, and that I am worthless to her, and anyone at the moment who did not do anything about letting me go somewhere. And, also I don't care about that person, who set me off, to the point where at times I can murder the person who set me off and have fun while murdering them.

ninphm wrote:For me personally, when I do this I don't actually hate the other person at all even though at that particular moment I'm convinced that I do. It's like I'm two people. A bad person and a good person. The good person is actually me.

That's just a protective self-delusion. You want to think you actually are the "good person" and the other person is just an evil twin who inhabits your body. The truth is, both are part of you, and neither one actually is you. A person with a PD simply doesn't have a developed or stable enough sense of self to have one personality all the time. As your fractured sense of reality shifts from one mode to another, the perceptions that color your thoughts and feelings change and that's why you experience different and contradictory emotions from minute to minute. The "good" you is simply one mode where you are on your best behavior towards yourself and others, but it's no more a complete personality than any other state you find yourself in. Even if you wanted it to to be the real you (and I have no doubt you do ... it's sincere wishful thinking), it's simply impossible, nobody can hold together a false personality for longer than a little while before things shift again.

As an aside note, the sincerity of your wishful thinking is why I respect borderlines more than other PDs. The borderlines I've known in real life tend to be well intentioned and try hard to keep the "good" person front and center as often as possible... it makes it hard to hate them just because they are trying to accomplish the impossible.

ninphm wrote: The bad person is not cool with that and must constantly try to sabotage the real me and when this splitting action occurs it's the bad person saying "See! I told you that person never cared about you! You were tricked! Hate them! They deserve it!" But in reality I don't hate them at all, I just can't stop that bad part from thinking and saying those things. I'm now smart enough to know that it isn't me really saying these mean things but it still isn't easy to stop it from happening. It's an overwhelming emotion that hits like a hammer. Please understand that when a borderline says mean things to you they don't actually mean it even though as they're are saying it they probably think they do. At least that's been my example.

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sfguy75x wrote:You want to think you actually are the "good person" and the other person is just an evil twin who inhabits your body. The truth is, both are part of you, and neither one actually is you. A person with a PD simply doesn't have a developed or stable enough sense of self to have one personality all the time.

SfGuy, thanks so much for venturing out of the NPD forum to add some clarity to this BPD thread. Like you, I also feel that Nimphm likely is mistaken to conclude that the "real her" is the part behaving good, not the part behaving badly.

On this issue, I have written many posts to the newbie-Nons who are vainly trying to reestablish the conditions under which their spouses/lovers were being "their true selves," i.e., sweet and well-intentioned as occurred all the time during the honeymoon period. Like you, I believe that most BPDs are well intentioned and are struggling to maintain that aspect of their personalities. I therefore believe that, when BPDs are behaving badly, most are not doing it out of malice but, rather, in response to a terrible fear.

Even so, I caution the newbie-Nons that it is a big mistake to think of their BPD mates as being their "true selves" when splitting white but "not being themselves" when splitting black. I've explained that BPD is called a "thought disorder" for a reason: it distorts BPDs' perceptions of other people both when they are splitting black and splitting white. As I understand it, this distortion and their unstable personalities are due to the rapid, enormous changes in emotions they suffer.

Indeed, none of us is able to maintain a clear and undistorted perception of other peoples' motivations while an intense emotion is sweeping through us. Recognizing that all of us have impaired judgment -- both when we are angry and when we are elated with joy -- is important because it means that the disorder can be controlled by learning how to better regulate the sudden emotional changes that make us all so vulnerable to losing a balanced sense of perspective.

What I am saying, then, is that I agree with you -- not that I could even come close to explaining it as well as you just did. You bring a clarity and level of understanding to this issue that I much appreciate. I therefore am hopeful you will start wandering out of the NPD forum far more often.

sfguy75x wrote:That's just a protective self-delusion. You want to think you actually are the "good person" and the other person is just an evil twin who inhabits your body.

Hey Sfguy


There is also a sense when splitting that the BPD person uses everything they can to MAKE YOU HATE THEM. It is baffling. The irony is (I think) that you do end up hating them - there is nothing else you can do. It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy and their only satisfaction is that they were 'right' about you - you are a phony or never cared for them in the first place. This despite the insanity you've put up with, sometimes for years, in an attempt to show them you do care. All of this is forgotten in an instant. You are clearly out to ruin their life - even when you are ignoring them! It is impossible to deal with in any rational way, truly it is.

Normal? wrote:I think a disordered person will invent, reinvent, justify, rationalise and eventually out and out lie in order to maintain this 'good person' image - for themselves as much as anyone else.

Normal, welcome to the BPD forum. Looks like you followed SfGuy out of the NPD forum. Do you NPD regulars always travel in pairs? I agree with all that you've added to this thread.

In the interest of putting the lying and rationalizing in perspective, however, I have to ask, "Isn't that true for all of us when confronted by a terror that feels like a threat to our very existence?" In my view, the answer is "yes, absolutely."

If so, the difference between BPDs and Nons is not the lying and rationalizing but, rather, merely the fact that BPDs are terrified far more often -- due, of course, to their difficulty in regulating emotional intensity.

Hey Downtown and thanks for the welcome.

Yes – those of us from the NPD forum travel in packs!

Normal? wrote:I have started to think recently, after some reading, that all Cluster B’s are fundamentally Borderline, with additional traits from other PDs. Specifically I think all Cluster B’s deal with anxiety in different ways.

Hello, again, Normal? Or, rather, Leader of the Pack? I don't know if it is true, but my understanding is that BPD is an "umbrella" disorder that includes all other Cluster B disorders, which is how you end up with the long list of nine BPD traits. If this is true, it does not imply that the typical BPD sufferer has all nine traits -- having just five is sufficient to warrant a clinical diagnosis if they are strong enough.

My understanding is that all of us exhibit all nine traits to some degree. This implies that the difference between Nons and BPDs is not a difference in kind but, rather, in degree. If you accept my view that we are all given the same set of human emotions and all exhibit the same traits (e.g., splitting, mirroring, infatuation, and dissociation), you can see why I believe it is so easy for us nonprofessionals to recognize a strong pattern of BPD traits when it occurs.

Hence, when a few of the folks on this forum claim we Nons are simply "arm chair psychologists" who have no basis for discussing BPD traits, I usually respond by pointing out that no adult on the planet needs a psychology degree to identify a basic human emotion like selfishness or jealousy. We all have been there, done that. So we can easily spot strong occurrences of it even though we certainly cannot determine when it rises to the level warranting a clinical diagnosis of NPD.

I wonder if he KNOWS he is rationalizing (and in effect lying to himself and others) or if he does it as an automatic (and largely unconscious) defense against the terror you describe. I am coming to the realization that I will never know which keeps me trapped in a form of cognitive dissonance.

Once you start reading some of the stories written by the very articulate and self aware BPDs on this forum, you will get a glimpse of how frightening it is to have such an unstable sense of who you are that you sometimes feel like you are outside your own body looking in; that you cannot know whether your feelings about someone or something are going to last a week or an hour; that you feel like you are evaporating into thin air when being intimate with someone; and that the last thing you want in life is to recognize that one more thing must be added to the long list of things you already hate about yourself.

I therefore believe that, when presented with that level of emptiness and fear, Nons would exhibit the very same behaviors of distorted perception and lying. As to teasing apart those two behaviors, I agree with you that it will drive you crazy to attempt it. We Nons therefore retreat for safety into "a cognitive dissonance trap" -- your delightfully appropriate expression -- wherein part of our mind believes it is a lie, another part believes it is a distorted view, and a third part knows that trying to reconcile this incongruity would be futile.

Some posters have discussed the idea of ‘remorse’ and I am still confused about it myself.

In the thread devoted to that issue, I cited an insightful article that explains how we codependent Nons (which does not include you) are all to willing to settle for remorse instead of insisting on true contrition. The latter, it explains, is what is needed for real change to occur. The unwillingness of the Nons to insist on it is just one more way that we codependents contribute to sustaining the toxic relationship by becoming enablers. The point, then, is that we Nons can be just as harmful to the BPDs as they are to us. After all, it takes two willing sick people to sustain a toxic relationship for many years. The article is at counsellingresource.com/features/2009/08/10/regret-sorrow-and-true-contrition/

I do understand the claims that there are co-dependency issues in the relationships described here but this often sounds to me like another form of rationalization. Whilst I would agree that I stayed too long in my relationship (6 months)

On another forum, a BPD-specialist therapist said that BPD relationships typically last 18 months or 15 years. This statement caught my rapt attention, of course, because my relationship lasted exactly 15 years.

The relationship lasts 18 months, he explained, when the Non is emotionally healthy enough to establish strong personal boundaries and enforce them. In that case, the Non delights in the wonderful passionate 6 month honeymoon period and then is willing to tolerate up to an additional year trying to reestablish the conditions of the honeymoon. By that standard, Normal, you are a bastion of health and strong self esteem. Putting all the rest of us Nons to shame, you bailed almost as soon as the honeymoon ended.

The relationship lasts 15 years, he explained, because the Non has self esteem issues, has weak personal boundaries, and is so "enmeshed" in his mate's needs that he does not try to satisfy his own. In this case, the Non never does leave his/her BPD mate. Instead, the mate grows increasingly resentful each year that he is unable to fix her or make her happy. She therefore walks out on him. Clearly, this camp of codependent Nons includes me -- and I'm left feeling disgruntled that you aren't even within shouting distance. Instead, you are out there running with your pack.

marylynn wrote:So, a bit sad that i have not received any responses. i am now going to ask anyone for a response, instead of just people who have bpd. maybe others can try to answer these questions for me. i am just really trying piece things together, but would really appreciate feedback.. thanks in advance. oh, just for clarification: is the pushing/pulling behavior related to splitting, or is it completely separate?

I am not responding much because I think the nons have some really silly ideas about bpd (and insulting) and many go into "psychologist" mode and start talking like one.

What does the splitting mean? There are some people I have NEVER split. Shocked? Well, it's true. Now when I have split somebody, say my sister who probably also has bpd (I'm serious), I love her when I say I do and hate her when I say I do. My feelings about her can fluctuate depending on what's going on. So I can actually change how I feel about certain people. But with others who are consistent with me there is no splitting. That is, at least, my experience.

Personally, I don't think nons "get it" but that's just me. For some good resources read the bpd only boards. You can't post there, but you can see much more honest responses to questions and nobody is holding back because they don't feel they will be judged, like I"m sure most feel here. Here is board I like to frequent. They do have one board where you can mingle

http://borderlinepersonalitydisordersan ... .yuku.com/

AGCDEFG wrote:There are some people I have NEVER split. Shocked? Well, it's true.

Pam (Alphabet), my understanding is that the behavior you describe is not unusual but, rather, typical for high functioning BPDs -- and, perhaps, for many low functioning BPDs too. That is, BPDs usually do not split their coworkers, customers, or casual friends because none of those people pose a threat of intimacy or abandonment. Those two threats are posed, however, by close friends, family, and lovers, which means that these folks can easily trigger a split. Mary Lynn found that out for herself when, after a year and a half of seeing no splitting by her friend, she unintentionally triggered numerous splits after drawing closer to that friend.

This explains why many BPDs will consistently treat casual friends, acquaintences, and total strangers with warmth and generosity and then go home and abuse their loved ones. And this explains why, following a divorce, the nonBPD typically is abandoned by all of the couple's casual friends. Because those friends never triggered or witnessed a split, they are wholly unaware of the BPD's dark side and thus believe every allegation made against the nonBPD mate.