vigilant against manipulation

When, or rather, what caused you to become aware of the manipulation tactics others use overtly or covertly? Or you yourself have used?

How much do you struggle identifying when someone else is in the wrong vs when you're in the wrong? How do come to your truth?

Something else I'm curious about- When you have relationships with others who are borderline or co-dependent, do you find it a uniquely difficult union?

...Particularly the self-proclaimed masochists who weep because they "care too much and others dont"; the one who will passive aggressively punish you? Acting 'in' rather than out. At moments they trigger you to act out- you feel angry at/repulsed by their lack of self-respect?

Just curious because I myself am borderline, and seem to be getting a taste of my own medicine Im feeling pissy about a friend I just cut loose because he was slowly but surely driving me up a wall. Like holding a mirror up to myself...like a year ago only.

relativelysane wrote:When, or rather, what caused you to become aware of the manipulation tactics others use overtly or covertly? Or you yourself have used?
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Educating myself about my mother's npd, gaining insight into her emotional abuse. Insight into my own & others' manipulations followed

relativelysane wrote:How much do you struggle identifying when someone else is in the wrong vs when you're in the wrong? How do come to your truth?
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A lot, I find my vigilance quite annoying and debilitating. This is the best description I’ve found (apologies if this belongs more in the schizoid sub-forum or wanders a bit off the topic),
"Vigilant types have a special kind of hearing. They are immediately aware of the mixed messages, the hidden motivations, the evasions, and the subtlest distortions of truth that elude or delude less gifted observers… They are idealists. They expect more from the human race than it seems to deliver…Vigilant-style individuals are inclined to feel that power will always be used against those who have less of it. This is sometimes true in the world but not always. A strongly vigilant person will not be able to make this essential discrimination."*
It’s sad but I accept can’t make this essential discrimination. So I rely on my feelings, if I’m explosively enraged by someone I gotta run. Long suffering, passive aggressive types, oh boy, I find so enraging (I must be very satisfying company given that the goal of passive aggression is to get the other person to explode).

relativelysane wrote:...Particularly the self-proclaimed masochists who weep because they "care too much and others dont"; the one who will passive aggressively punish you? Acting 'in' rather than out. At moments they trigger you to act out- you feel angry at/repulsed by their lack of self-respect?
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yes, as above. I have an aunt exactly like this & she always has the moral high ground over me, often quoting her religion** as justification for her being the caring martyr while punishing me passive aggressively. The hypocrisy really frustrates me, I just don’t think it’s right to be passive aggressive, but it’s invisible so you can never prove it.

I’ve never regretted cutting lose a passive aggressive person. I don’t know if others expereince the same but I find it’s the people who remind me of my mother that aggravate me the most. She was npd but being a million hours late on purpose, for example, is a classic passive aggressive behaviour of hers that really bothers me in others .

*The New Personality Self-Portrait. by J Oldham & L. Morris.
**her religion and religions generally, I respect; what I don't like is her misuse of it to cast herself in a kindly light when I find her anything but.

relativelysane wrote:...Particularly the self-proclaimed masochists who weep because they "care too much and others dont"; the one who will passive aggressively punish you? Acting 'in' rather than out. At moments they trigger you to act out- you feel angry at/repulsed by their lack of self-respect?

If you'd punch me out of the blue, would that make me a masochist?
And would someone else be lacking self-respect besides you?
I'd certainly feel great repulsion and walk away. Would you follow me pleading I am a masochist, gawd, could you be any more pathetic.

relativelysane wrote:When, or rather, what caused you to become aware of the manipulation tactics others use overtly or covertly? Or you yourself have used?

I think everyone manipulates.

relativelysane wrote:How much do you struggle identifying when someone else is in the wrong vs when you're in the wrong? How do come to your truth?

Since becoming aware I struggle constantly with knowing if I am right/wrong. I still listen to what my truth is first because it is what is normal to me. I will sometimes ask another for their opinion or even just advice on what they think I should do. Most times though it only confuses me more and becomes additional thoughts/noise in my head.

relativelysane wrote:Something else I'm curious about- When you have relationships with others who are borderline or co-dependent, do you find it a uniquely difficult union?

I have never that I know of been in a relationship with another BPD. I have been with a co-dependent and do not find it to be a difficult union, but even though I need a co-dependent, I find it to be lifeless and boring.

relativelysane wrote:When, or rather, what caused you to become aware of the manipulation tactics others use overtly or covertly? Or you yourself have used?

I used to know this guy who went around calling people on their deceptive crap. It was like an epiphany, once I actually started listening instead of simply dismissing him as an asshole. Eventually, he called me on mine.

How much do you struggle identifying when someone else is in the wrong vs when you're in the wrong? How do come to your truth?

All the time. I just have to let myself go back and forth, weighing all the possibilities. That takes however long it takes, which can be exasperating, but it can't be rushed. The answer is whatever I think when I'm clear headed and not being tugged around by emotion. Assuming that ever happens.

Something else I'm curious about- When you have relationships with others who are borderline or co-dependent, do you find it a uniquely difficult union?

I don't have relationships.

...Particularly the self-proclaimed masochists who weep because they "care too much and others dont"; the one who will passive aggressively punish you? Acting 'in' rather than out. At moments they trigger you to act out- you feel angry at/repulsed by their lack of self-respect?

I've been that person. I hope I'm not anymore, but sometimes I wonder.

Just curious because I myself am borderline, and seem to be getting a taste of my own medicine Im feeling pissy about a friend I just cut loose because he was slowly but surely driving me up a wall. Like holding a mirror up to myself...like a year ago only.

Yeah, I hear you. It pisses me off that I seem to resemble the traits I most hated about my own parents. It makes me realize I have to forgive them if I want to be deserving of forgiveness.