Gender bias with BPD

by **DT1095** » Fri May 05, 2017 2:53 pm

I have a theory on this and it usually causes offence to women but I do not say it to offend.

I believe some BPD behaviour is exasperated by certain hormones such as oestrogen. In men with BPD the oestrogen levels remain constant so therefore BPD behaviour doesn't display as prominently as it is fairly constant.

With women with BPD hormone levels fluctuate with the menstrual cycle and during pregnancy. This change in hormones in my experience increases some BPD behaviour and therefor makes it seem more prominent.

It may not be oestrogen that is the trigger but both my uBPD exs couldn't tolerate oral contraception that was oestrogen based. In the words of my ex wife it made her feel crazy.

I hope this thought hasn't caused offence.

thejan wrote:I hope i won't trigger anyone. What i am going to write is my experience as a man with mental illness.

I think with men there are two types (as with women): acting out and acting in. In general, men tend to be more extreme in their actions than women are. That means when a man is acting out, he might do something criminal and land in prison. And i imagine police officers react differently when a woman is halted in traffic for driving too fast and being drunk and she is in tears and says she has hurt her children. The police officers think: "That poor woman, let's get her to the hospital."
Now imagine what happens when a man is halted in traffic for driving too fast and being drunk and he is in tears and says he has hurt his children - A police officer is more likely to think "Is he trying to make it look like he is out of his mind in order to get out of the fine for driving too fast... AND being drunk on top of that?" than with a woman.
(Also, the "more extreme" part may be why more men kill themselves as women do - the way men try to commit suicide are more extreme and more likely to "succeed")

The next thing is that men are much more forgiving if a woman has depression (as long as she looks good) than woman are if a man has depression. Most women see a depressed man as weak and unmanly. While a depressed woman can be "waif-like", and when she looks good, it can combine to become some lady-in-a-tower-waiting-to-be-rescued.
This leads to a situation where acting-in BPD women have a much easier time finding a relationship than acting-in men. When you are in a relationship, it is hard to disguise the scars. Also, women in general have a better support system than men have.
This then leads to a situation in which men who self harm are less likely to be referred to the hospital by their support system.... because they are less likely to have one that works.

Also, women are much more likely to seek help and it is much more accepted, while a man seeking help for a thing like self-harm is probably going to be ridiculed. By women. I still know how one female psychologist laughed at me in front of the whole staff one time, though that wasn't because of self-harm. I thought she was trying to provoke me in front of the whole staff so i stared at her blankly for about 3 seconds bearing no emotional reaction whatsoever (i still don't know how i did that), then turned my attention to the rest of the staff.
I imagine that if came forward with self-harm (they didn't know i was self-harming), she would have ridiculed me, or would not have believed me. And probably tried to make me look ridiculous in front of everyone.

I think the amount of acting-out and acting-in men is actually the same as with women, but women re more likely to get into hospital for acting in (and sometimes acting out... if they are ALSO acting in).

Noone talks about men who act in. It is a big taboo. And when it is talked about, they are likely to be ridiculed, like "only loosers are like that". It is like we don't exist. It is like all men with BPD are big assholes who because they are ill, are letting out their temper on other people. I am not like that and i never want to be like that. I'd much rather hurt myself than let out my frustration on others. It is enough if one person suffers, why make it two?

EDIT: There is another thing. I have witnessed a few "borderline stations" in psychiatry where they do intense DBT therapy (like the whole day for 4 weeks). However, they were women-only. It is like men with BPD don't even deserve treatment, even if they are non-violent against others. Put them into therapy for addictions or violence or whatever. Wait until they become criminal and land in prison that is where they all belong.
It is my experience that psychiatric staff has no idea what to do with a non-violent male who self-harms. They know how to react when a woman does it, and they know how to behave when a guy is having a temper tantrum... i felt largely ignored by them. They were testing me for drugs. They were testing me for ADD. They were testing me for depression. They were testing me for bipolar. They were testing me for brain damage. They were testing my thyroid. They were testing and testing and testing and didn't find anything. Would i have been a woman, i would have been getting the BPD label quickly and got treatment. I never got any psychotherapeutic treatment for whatever i have. I still don't know what i have. I couldn't sleep on Abilify and that is why they told me i had bipolar. Then they put me on medication. Great. I don't want medication I WANT HELP.

I really, really feel sorry for you. Though I'm not in your situation, I can imagine how hard it can be to be vulnerable emotionally and, at the same time, try to be up to stereotypical "male" image.

I also definitely agree with you that women, in case of mental problems, are "allowed" more. Nobody treats me seriously when I'm physically aggressive towards my partners (which is good). However, if the situation was opposite (I was a man, and my partner a woman) I would totally be labeled as domestic abuser.

by **thejan** » Fri May 05, 2017 5:12 pm

Thank you. In retrospect, i think maybe that psychologist was trying to in some way trigger me to get forward to a concrete diagnosis (i already was in there for 4 weeks), or maybe she just didn't expect what i was saying. But i really hated her for laughing at me in front of the whole staff. I was really shocked so i didn't say anything.

by **Merseamud** » Fri May 05, 2017 8:38 pm

thejan wrote:I hope i won't trigger anyone. What i am going to write is my experience as a man with mental illness.

I think with men there are two types (as with women): acting out and acting in. In general, men tend to be more extreme in their actions than women are. That means when a man is acting out, he might do something criminal and land in prison. And i imagine police officers react differently when a woman is halted in traffic for driving too fast and being drunk and she is in tears and says she has hurt her children. The police officers think: "That poor woman, let's get her to the hospital."
Now imagine what happens when a man is halted in traffic for driving too fast and being drunk and he is in tears and says he has hurt his children - A police officer is more likely to think "Is he trying to make it look like he is out of his mind in order to get out of the fine for driving too fast... AND being drunk on top of that?" than with a woman.
(Also, the "more extreme" part may be why more men kill themselves as women do - the way men try to commit suicide are more extreme and more likely to "succeed")

The next thing is that men are much more forgiving if a woman has depression (as long as she looks good) than woman are if a man has depression. Most women see a depressed man as weak and unmanly. While a depressed woman can be "waif-like", and when she looks good, it can combine to become some lady-in-a-tower-waiting-to-be-rescued.
This leads to a situation where acting-in BPD women have a much easier time finding a relationship than acting-in men. When you are in a relationship, it is hard to disguise the scars. Also, women in general have a better support system than men have.
This then leads to a situation in which men who self harm are less likely to be referred to the hospital by their support system.... because they are less likely to have one that works.

Also, women are much more likely to seek help and it is much more accepted, while a man seeking help for a thing like self-harm is probably going to be ridiculed. By women. I still know how one female psychologist laughed at me in front of the whole staff one time, though that wasn't because of self-harm. I thought she was trying to provoke me in front of the whole staff so i stared at her blankly for about 3 seconds bearing no emotional reaction whatsoever (i still don't know how i did that), then turned my attention to the rest of the staff.
I imagine that if came forward with self-harm (they didn't know i was self-harming), she would have ridiculed me, or would not have believed me. And probably tried to make me look ridiculous in front of everyone.

I think the amount of acting-out and acting-in men is actually the same as with women, but women re more likely to get into hospital for acting in (and sometimes acting out... if they are ALSO acting in).

Noone talks about men who act in. It is a big taboo. And when it is talked about, they are likely to be ridiculed, like "only loosers are like that". It is like we don't exist. It is like all men with BPD are big assholes who because they are ill, are letting out their temper on other people. I am not like that and i never want to be like that. I'd much rather hurt myself than let out my frustration on others. It is enough if one person suffers, why make it two?

EDIT: There is another thing. I have witnessed a few "borderline stations" in psychiatry where they do intense DBT therapy (like the whole day for 4 weeks). However, they were women-only. It is like men with BPD don't even deserve treatment, even if they are non-violent against others. Put them into therapy for addictions or violence or whatever. Wait until they become criminal and land in prison that is where they all belong.
It is my experience that psychiatric staff has no idea what to do with a non-violent male who self-harms. They know how to react when a woman does it, and they know how to behave when a guy is having a temper tantrum... i felt largely ignored by them. They were testing me for drugs. They were testing me for ADD. They were testing me for depression. They were testing me for bipolar. They were testing me for brain damage. They were testing my thyroid. They were testing and testing and testing and didn't find anything. Would i have been a woman, i would have been getting the BPD label quickly and got treatment. I never got any psychotherapeutic treatment for whatever i have. I still don't know what i have. I couldn't sleep on Abilify and that is why they told me i had bipolar. Then they put me on medication. Great. I don't want medication I WANT HELP.

Interesting. It occurs to me that I'm not easily triggered, at least not by reading forum posts. I have other triggers.

Your thoughts about police officers and the way they deal with different genders are in my experience correct. I said I'd had an interesting varied work profile and I hope i's okay to share that being a police officer for 10 years was a part of it. The procedures make it clear that gender bias is wrong but men and women are different and the response to them is also different. Don't get me wrong, in your scenario with the woman driving drunk etc she'd get nicked every time for several reasons and I was one of the less reactive constables.

I was the kind of copper where people say that 'I can't see you as a police officer' so in terms of hard nosed, aggressive and physical policing it wasn't my thing but I've got stuck in when it was necessary. Many female PCs were more gung ho than me.

I was also an officer in the armed forces for over 20 years so it would seem I was Mr Macho but actually this is far from the case.

I thrived at work despite my mental health issues. I had roles that earned respect. I was intelligent, personable (manipulative?) and hard working. I knew that I found life a struggle in terms of my personal relationships but outside of that I was seen as a high flier and that helped sustain me. My problems in my family were seen as a result of stress and overlooked.

Take my vaulted positions away and I have struggled a lot. I identified with my job. Nowadays I work in care, low pay and poor conditions. I have struggled more and the emptiness has grown.

I acted out but in a very controlled way. I was careful not to let it spill over into anything criminal or medical. I have come close and were I female I suspect would have received a MH diagnosis earlier.

But by acting out I was acting in. Kicking out at anything good and wholesome in my life has been my self harm. So it's not straightforward.

My pending diagnosis is self referred and it may come to nought anyway. We'll see. Maybe I'm a fraud? Years of counselling training and practice combined with living in my head have certainly driven my self awareness journey.

I was brought up in an environment where emotions were forbidden. My father survived WW2 with PTSD no doubt and he controlled our family environment to a enormous degree. I'm never going to break down or show any emotion except in my own little space. No histrionics for this man.

So I'm probably not very masculine, despite my career. I have strong feminine traits but I also have a drive to remain in control and cope. So the whole issue is complex.

by **PuzzledMan** » Sat May 06, 2017 12:40 pm

Baldanders wrote:
PuzzledMan wrote:But fact is that men are originally designed to be more logical and have greater control over their emotions.
...
Also men's aggressiveness is more dangerous and more frequent

That's contradictory.

I don't know about the exact statistics and this is just anecdotal, but my dad is definitely not logical and has horrible control over his emotions. I (also a guy, btw) am often accused of being illogical and had literally no control over my emotions until I had gone through DBT.

Baldanders, this is the same as stating that men aren't stronger than woman and aren't generally better in chess because you found a couple that is very weak and terrible in chess.

I mean men have the genes for problem solving and hunting, thus the brains are slightly enhanced for such purpose, which does not mean it will not crash on emotions too. And aggressiveness also varies from one to other idividual. But a physically aggressive woman is usually not a great concern, while a physically aggressive men is hardly not a concern, because they are designed to chase and kill.

by **Baldanders** » Sat May 06, 2017 4:15 pm

True.
However, that doesn't make your statements correct. They're still contradictory and they still aren't backed by science. I may not know the exact statistics from the studies that have been done, but I do remember that there is no evidence of a biological reason for gender roles.
Granted, I should have gone with that instead of using anecdotal stuff. I reacted rashly to feeling like I was being told that I and my experiences don't exist and I realize now that I was being ridiculous.

by **PuzzledMan** » Sun May 07, 2017 2:51 am

Baldenders,

I don't think you post was ridiculous. But your point isn't very clear. For the topic question, gender bias with BPD, if the questions was about BPD being related to females more than males, I would think that internally not really, but externally yes. True fact is that at least 75% of diagnostics go for females, which is a reflection of external behavior. And I see reasons for that, which I explained. Some from book and articles I read (about aggression and hormones). The only explanation I made up is about men having a greater logical capacity, which would help them "hide it".

When my wife tries to use emotions to justify her actions, it sounds convincing, but when she tries to use logic, it's a mess. I have never seen a men getting lost so much with the logic. I think this is part of the reason why men get more ASPD diagnostic. They are frequently move convincing by using logic, but that makes them seem cruel. And it hides the real reasons for the BPD behavior, which are not logical.

See for instance the post from thejan. It contains flawless logic. I can see why it is hard to get a BPD diagnostic when you can describe things in such way.

by **Baldanders** » Sun May 07, 2017 5:22 pm

PuzzledMan,
I didn't say the post was ridiculous. I said that my knee jerk reaction which resulted in me using anecdotes instead of scientific evidence was ridiculous.

My point is that the gender bias perceived in BPD is more likely due to society's perception of gender. In other words, I agree with thejan.

PuzzledMan wrote:The only explanation I made up is about men having a greater logical capacity, which would help them "hide it".

Yes, this is made up and it is sexist crap that has no basis in reality. Technically, it wasn't made up by you though. It was made up be people centuries before you were born and is the reason why the societal biases that thejan described exist.

PuzzledMan wrote:When my wife tries to use emotions to justify her actions, it sounds convincing, but when she tries to use logic, it's a mess. I have never seen a men getting lost so much with the logic.

Your anecdotes are not any more credible than my anecdotes.

by **PuzzledMan** » Mon May 08, 2017 1:39 am

Baldanders wrote:My point is that the gender bias perceived in BPD is more likely due to society's perception of gender.

My point is that society perceives males different because they talk and behave very different. And such difference is not just due to social conventions, but due to fundamental differences . So I don't think it is just "sexist crap", as you said. I also agree with thejan in the sense that there are stereotypes for men and women, but I add that there is a reason behind that.

Studying of the brain gives lots of clues about were do those preceived differences com from. While those differences may not protect males against developing BPD, they will certainly change the way that the disorder is externalized. Here are some quotes which support my claim:

"Females often have a larger hippocampus, our human memory center. Females also often have a higher density of neural connections into the hippocampus. As a result, girls and women tend to input or absorb more sensorial and emotive information than males do."

"The female brain, (...) will often ruminate on and revisit emotional memories more than the male brain."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ho ... en-genders

Baldanders wrote:Your anecdotes are not any more credible than my anecdotes.

Maybe this quote proves something for you then:

"When it comes to discussing feelings and emotions and senses together, girls tend to have an advantage"

by **Baldanders** » Mon May 08, 2017 4:47 pm

Wasn't that debunked recently?
In any case, Psychology Today is not a credible source in science. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh though. I recently finished my honours in biology-psychology and am still in proper science mode.
I don't think you understand the definition of "proves."
In any case, I've got better and more pressing things to do with my time than argue this.

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