How do you know when you crossed a boundary?

Like when the person doesn't tell you.

I feel I may have crossed a friend's boundaries over the last month or so, but it didn't seem to be a crossing at the time (it sounds sexual for some reason but it's not). Like she didn't seem to give off any uncomfortable body language or say anything to indicate she was uncomfortable and so I assumed it was ok. But I think I overheard her saying to someone that she wasn't comfortable with it and now I don't know anymore. I've considered just asking her but I don't want to seem intense, or like I am misreading, or like I was eavesdropping because I heard it in passing.

I suppose I could just read her body language for signs of discomfort. Maybe I missed something. It's driving me crazy and this is why I don't make friends because they don't tell you when something is wrong and then you feel like an ass later on.

If you can't really tell when you're getting too close to a person, I think your best bet would be mirroring their behavior towards you. If she doesn't look in your direction much, do the same. If she crosses her arms, do the same. Let her decide on the physical distance between you, and talk as much as she does, about topics of similar intimacy. Don't initiate much of anything.

jerboa wrote:If you can't really tell when you're getting too close to a person, I think your best bet would be mirroring their behavior towards you. If she doesn't look in your direction much, do the same. If she crosses her arms, do the same. Let her decide on the physical distance between you, and talk as much as she does, about topics of similar intimacy. Don't initiate much of anything.

That's why it confuses me. The issue I'm having is that I thought I heard her say to someone that I hang out with her too much and for too long. But she's the one who asks 4/5 times. And as for the too long part, again I always felt she extends our time together, not me. Asking if I want to stick around to eat, or to watch a movie, or whatever. But now I wonder if she's only doing that because she doesn't know how to ask me to leave? Or she's waiting for me to leave on my own?

Maybe she's expecting you to leave in spite of her insisting? Like, Imagine you baked the best chocolate cake ever, and your friend comes over. You think it's polite to share some cake with the friend, so you do that, but secretly you want all the cake for yourself, so you're hoping that your friend will get that and politely refuse. You're basically a selfish jerk, but you don't want to come off as impolite, so you offer stuff you don't really want to offer, and then blame the other party for accepting it.

jerboa wrote:Maybe she's expecting you to leave in spite of her insisting? Like, Imagine you baked the best chocolate cake ever, and your friend comes over. You think it's polite to share some cake with the friend, so you do that, but secretly you want all the cake for yourself, so you're hoping that your friend will get that and politely refuse. You're basically a selfish jerk, but you don't want to come off as impolite, so you offer stuff you don't really want to offer, and then blame the other party for accepting it.

Hmm, I guess in a way I can see that? Like you offer someone something to be nice but you actually don't mean it...like when you offer to help someone move but you hope they say no lol and are relieved when they do.

I hope that's not what she's doing. =/ That's so frustrating. Like, it would be so much easier if she would just tell me what she actually wants.

witchessabbath wrote:That's why it confuses me. The issue I'm having is that I thought I heard her say to someone that I hang out with her too much and for too long. But she's the one who asks 4/5 times. And as for the too long part, again I always felt she extends our time together, not me. Asking if I want to stick around to eat, or to watch a movie, or whatever. But now I wonder if she's only doing that because she doesn't know how to ask me to leave? Or she's waiting for me to leave on my own?

Sometimes women can be weird and I believe sometimes we also don't want to appear clingy. I am not entirely sure but it sounds as though she might just also be trying to protect herself from getting hurt(maybe she is emotionally sensitive/insecure as well). This is a very vague guess but something to consider, I think. Especially if she is the one who is extending the visit and asking to hang out most times. I would also do similar to what Jerboa suggested, especially if you are trying to play it safe. Hope that made sense.. Made sense in my head lol.

Okay so how long had you already been at her house before she offered you the movie/dinner?

I personally dread it when friends come over who always hang around for long periods of time and show no interest in leaving unless I have to kick them out (figure of speech) It's never easy to tell someone to go home, I know I find it very awkward as when i do I always come across too blunt. It's always much better when the guests just don't over do their visit, and know it's appropriate to leave after a couple hours.

If what you heard was accurate to what she actually said, then that's a sign right there that she lacks in self confidence to speak up about how she truly feels when in the moment, especially when it comes to setting boundaries. It doesn't mean she does not want to hang with you, as it's clear she does since she is the one who instigates it. But if your visits are going on for several hours then it could be triggering some anxiety in her because she is then forced to face her inner demons of not being able to set boundaries and communicate effectively with people. I know I have had some hard times when friends have out welcomed their stay. It's like you deal with a combination of distress of having no control, and frustration towards the friend for not showing respect for the time they are taking up. Then I would offer them dinner out of politeness, and I would secretly hope they would take that as the queue to head home. It never worked though. The most frustrating ones are the people who decline the offer for dinner, but still hang around.

My suggestion is if you hang out again then keep it shorter. A couple hours max. Tell her you have something else planned, and better yet actually have something planned.

seekinghelpforbpd wrote:

witchessabbath wrote:That's why it confuses me. The issue I'm having is that I thought I heard her say to someone that I hang out with her too much and for too long. But she's the one who asks 4/5 times. And as for the too long part, again I always felt she extends our time together, not me. Asking if I want to stick around to eat, or to watch a movie, or whatever. But now I wonder if she's only doing that because she doesn't know how to ask me to leave? Or she's waiting for me to leave on my own?

Sometimes women can be weird and I believe sometimes we also don't want to appear clingy. I am not entirely sure but it sounds as though she might just also be trying to protect herself from getting hurt(maybe she is emotionally sensitive/insecure as well). This is a very vague guess but something to consider, I think. Especially if she is the one who is extending the visit and asking to hang out most times. I would also do similar to what Jerboa suggested, especially if you are trying to play it safe. Hope that made sense.. Made sense in my head lol.

She definitely has those elements of insecurity and clinginess. I know for a fact she has had moments where she is worried she is boring me, or burdening me, or worried about our friendship changing. She told me before she had to challenge herself to be alone one time, cause she was going to contact me because she felt bad, but she decided to do it on her own in order to learn to be alone with herself. I can't speak to if it's anywhere near as intense as my fears are. I doubt it, I can't imagine anyone being as insecure as I am.

Psycho Delica wrote:Okay so how long had you already been at her house before she offered you the movie/dinner?

I personally dread it when friends come over who always hang around for long periods of time and show no interest in leaving unless I have to kick them out (figure of speech) It's never easy to tell someone to go home, I know I find it very awkward as when i do I always come across too blunt. It's always much better when the guests just don't over do their visit, and know it's appropriate to leave after a couple hours.

If what you heard was accurate to what she actually said, then that's a sign right there that she lacks in self confidence to speak up about how she truly feels when in the moment, especially when it comes to setting boundaries. It doesn't mean she does not want to hang with you, as it's clear she does since she is the one who instigates it. But if your visits are going on for several hours then it could be triggering some anxiety in her because she is then forced to face her inner demons of not being able to set boundaries and communicate effectively with people. I know I have had some hard times when friends have out welcomed their stay. It's like you deal with a combination of distress of having no control, and frustration towards the friend for not showing respect for the time they are taking up. Then I would offer them dinner out of politeness, and I would secretly hope they would take that as the queue to head home. It never worked though. The most frustrating ones are the people who decline the offer for dinner, but still hang around.

My suggestion is if you hang out again then keep it shorter. A couple hours max. Tell her you have something else planned, and better yet actually have something planned.

Quite often we hang out for 6-8 hours. Usually from like 6 PM, where we might go out, then she'll ask me if I want to go back to the apartment to watch movies, play games, talk, whatever. So we will. Usually she wants to watch a movie after about 4-5 hours.

What you're saying is entirely possible as well. She does have a lot of anxiety and I know sometimes struggles to set boundaries. I guess I just get confused cause sometimes she DOES ask me to go when it gets later and I never have a problem leaving. And when she doesn't ask, I will sometimes leave on my own, and sometimes it will just be a sleepover. And yeah, she still asks me to hang out almost every day (well, not lately but she has some life stuff going on), so I just assumed it was fine and that she liked being around me as much as I like being around her.

I like your suggestion. From your perspective, do you think it would be helpful to talk to her about this? I'll have to prepare for it. It will sting a bit to realize that maybe she didn't like to hang out for as much/long as I thought...so I have to be ready to hear that answer. I also want to make sure I don't come at it from a place of "YOU HATE ME YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE ME" and come from it from a place of compassion for whatever anxiety she may feel around this...

Well, don't they say actions speak louder than words? I know it sounds cliche but I think its true. Unless she is deliberately trying to control her body language, if you sense she is open and welcoming of you, then she probably is.

Its easier to control your words than to control body language, which is largely involuntary and subconscious.

I don't know why she would say that, though. But as you said she invites you to hang out the majority of the time.

Can you let her know you overheard her saying that and ask her about it? I know that can be awkward, but it also seems like you are entitled to have a clear answer on why she is being contradictory.

MotherRussia wrote:Well, don't they say actions speak louder than words? I know it sounds cliche but I think its true. Unless she is deliberately trying to control her body language, if you sense she is open and welcoming of you, then she probably is.

Its easier to control your words than to control body language, which is largely involuntary and subconscious.

I don't know why she would say that, though. But as you said she invites you to hang out the majority of the time.

Can you let her know you overheard her saying that and ask her about it? I know that can be awkward, but it also seems like you are entitled to have a clear answer on why she is being contradictory.

That's what I think....I mean, for example, I have some family who tend to keep me around longer than I am comfortable for. So the way that I manage this is I only go at certain times, so that they don't have as much of an option to keep me longer than I want. I don't tend to see them as often as I would if it felt easier to leave. So I feel like, if hanging out with me was super awkward, she wouldn't ask nearly as much as she does...

As for the body language part I just wonder if I am missing something. The times I am wondering about most I think is the times where we hang out so long that one of us falls asleep. I did notice one time that she put on the movie and then curled up in the blanket on her couch and took off her glasses lol so I knew she was planning on going straight to sleep. But that was only once that her sleeping seemed planned. I don't mind that, she has fallen asleep in front of me many times (usually with her glasses on, so it wasn't planned I think), and I have fallen asleep in front of her. I took it as a sign that we were comfortable with each other. But now I wonder if the sleeping is actually a sign I should have left...like if all the times she has fallen asleep it was actually because she didn't know how to ask me to leave and has just given up and sleeps with me there lol.

Maybe talking to her about what I heard is the only option. I think for a lot of people the frequency of our hangouts would seem really abnormal. But we both agree we generally have different levels of comfort than a lot of other people do, and that we can tolerate different levels of closeness and intimacy with those we trust. So it's very possible I simply misheard what she said - it was a brief comment that I overheard as I was leaving that evening. But it's also possible that I'm making her uncomfortable.

-- Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:38 pm --

I also asked my therapist what she thought would be a good way to approach this and she didn't want to give me answer. She says she thinks I have the tools to make the best decision. I see two options:

1. Keep things as they are, and just try to pay more attention to cues and see what I pick up. The pro is that there's no intense/possibly random and unexpected conversation. The con of that is if I STILL miss her cues resentment could build.

2. Talk to her about what I heard. Pro: keeps things simple and if she does have anxieties she knows I care about how she feels and that she can talk to me about stuff. Con: it could seem really dramatic, like I am taking something I THOUGHT I heard out of context, or like I am too easily offended.