Is DBT effective and not a cult? *May Trigger*

I know psychonanalysis has all the makings of a cult.

And that psychotherapy in general is a lot like religion: A psychologist (such as Freud, Lacan, Jung, etc., writes a theory along with a set of rituals, and a bunch of "apostles" (the psychotherapists) follow said rituals and beliefs and set on to pass on this new "knowledge" onto others as a form of "healing of the emotions" and behavioral control.

This is quite literally, religion.


Now a brief study of DBT has showed me this Marsha Linehan gal is exactly like those mentioned above. What amazes me is that CBT is regarded as a minimally invasive, brief and scientifically tested form of psychotherapy. Thing is, most studies I've read about it are quite.... poorly done. CBT is no more of rehashing common sense and stating the obvious than other forms of therapy. I thought DBT, who is claiming to be able to treat BPD, would be more substantial. Honestly, I think it's cwackery. This Marsha Linehan claims to have had BPD, but the only diagnosis I could trace on her was of schizophrenia - which virtually ANYONE who has a brief passage through a mental institution tends to get (sadly, this is true. psychiatry usually puts a Schizophrenia NOS label on most inpatients before they know what's up). Seems a lot like she is try to sell a cure for BPD which has NO EVIDENCE, and is even using herself as a marketing tool.

BPD is, frankly, the god damn worse mental illness of all aside from schizophrenia. I mean, "very symptomatic" BPDs will have a foot on psychopathy, one in narcissism, psychosis, depression, anxiety and crazy bipolar-like mood and identity swings.

Does anyone here had real success with DBT? If so, which symptoms and behaviors did it EFFECTIVELY treat? Please exclude reports of mere "awareness of the symptom", or repression of behavior. I want treatment effectiviness: which means, you don't feel like doing X and Y and you feel overall better.


It seems like Marsha LInehan is pushing a product claiming to treat way more than it can. And is gathering a cult following by other mental health professionals, who are passing on this new "phylosophy" as science and medical treatment.
If even psychoanalysis, which is a load of crap, still exists and profits, let alone the damage DBT will do to our pockets and lives if left unchecked.

But please, prove me incorrect if you can.

^*TW*
There should be a trigger warning.

Psycotherapy is pseudo-science when it pretends to be a psychology. Freud created many explanations to explain different behaviours, and exposed them as the latest scientific discovery. This is quackery.

Talk therapy alone is not. It is just a technique. It is the same as Pilates. I think DBT is just a series of mindfullness techniques/exercise. If it is that so, it is not pseudoscience.

I can say the same about Yoga, Kunye, Ayurvedic Massage, Acupuncture, Transcendental Meditation, Qi Qong or Kung Fu. Yoga as exercise it is OK. Yoga as theory is a religion, even if people deny it.

Anyway techniques must produce results, if they produce they are worth. It doesnt really matter the theory behind them.

Still I prefer to look at the original buddhism mindfullness techniques, instead of dbt, simple kunye, transcendental meditation, etc... . But that it is maybe because I want to go deep at things I do.

creative_nothing wrote:^*TW*
There should be a trigger warning.

Psycotherapy is pseudo-science when it pretends to be a psychology. Freud created many explanations to explain different behaviours, and exposed them as the latest scientific discovery. This is quackery.

Talk therapy alone is not. It is just a technique. It is the same as Pilates. I think DBT is just a series of mindfullness techniques/exercise. If it is that so, it is not pseudoscience.

I can say the same about Yoga, Acupuncture, Qi Qong or Kung Fu. Yoga as exercise it is OK. Yoga as theory is a religion, even if people deny it.

Anyway techniques must produce results, if they produce they are worth. It doesnt really matter the theory behind them.

Still I would prefer go to the original mindfullness techniques.

I think DBT and CBT are no more than variants of exercises present in many religions from Asia, as well. However, it is being sold as effective medical treatment for psychiatric illnesses in 2014.

Talk therapy is nothing like pilates, as in reproduction of results. Pilates nowadays deals with quite a lot of known medical problems and know what it can do, where, for how long, to which extent. Psychotherapy does not. Yoga has exercises that are harmful and a bit useless.

Acupuncture is known to be a fraud and cannot be sold as medical treatment. Not surprinsingly, it found it's home with a lot of psychotherapists. They do crystal therapy too, you know?

Kung Fu is one of the best ways of keeping yourself in shape and kicking butt. What this has to do with psychotherapy?

twistednerve wrote:Kung Fu is one of the best ways of keeping yourself in shape and kicking butt. What this has to do with psychotherapy?

Kung Fu/Qi Qong can keep you in shape. But does it have anything to do with the Qi?

Talk therapy is nothing like pilates, as in reproduction of results. Pilates nowadays deals with quite a lot of known medical problems and know what it can do, where, for how long, to which extent. Psychotherapy does not.

So does psychotherapy. Talk therapy works for some psychological issues, specially about conflicting values. It was developed to deal with neurotic personalities, so It was not supposed to help with everything.

.

twistednerve wrote:
BPD is, frankly, the god damn worse mental illness of all aside from schizophrenia. I mean, "very symptomatic" BPDs will have a foot on psychopathy, one in narcissism, psychosis, depression, anxiety and crazy bipolar-like mood and identity swings.

Does anyone here had real success with DBT? If so, which symptoms and behaviors did it EFFECTIVELY treat? Please exclude reports of mere "awareness of the symptom", or repression of behavior. I want treatment effectiviness: which means, you don't feel like doing X and Y and you feel overall better.

It seems like Marsha LInehan is pushing a product claiming to treat way more than it can. And is gathering a cult following by other mental health professionals, who are passing on this new "phylosophy" as science and medical treatment.
If even psychoanalysis, which is a load of crap, still exists and profits, let alone the damage DBT will do to our pockets and lives if left unchecked.

But please, prove me incorrect if you can.

I'm really not one for cults or religion and I like DBT as treatment for BPD. I'm more of a skeptic than anything and was raised agnostic so I don't really take to cult mentalities. However, DBT is not a mentality- it's a set of stills and techniques. CBT is not as effective for PwBPD because it doesn't take into account the concept of dialectics. From what I've heard, it can feel really invalidating. DBT is predicated on the idea that you can feel one way, rationally know another way, and act with both of those things in mind. DBT has been shown to decrease self-harm and suicidal behaviors in studies. Mindfulness, the technique DBT uses, has been shown to change the brain physiologically. It's pretty cool actually. Outside of that, you're right. Not a lot is known. However, funding for studies on BPD is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than for Bipolar, Schizophrenia, and basically every other mental illness. The research on BPD and treatment is generally insufficient on all fronts.

The way you describe BPD is....interesting. I've met people with bipolar who have it far worse than I do. But I don't have to remind you once again that BPD is a spectrum disorder. My love life is hell on earth and I don't know how to maintain romantic relationships or close emotional friendships and when my relationships end I lose all emotional stability and will to live, but my day to day is better than that of a really depressed person. We can't make these kinds of generalizations. For SOME people, BPD is one of the most painful experiences of mental illness, but not for everyone. Just a side note.

It's hard to determine "success" with DBT. Therapy is something that requires continuous work and it's hard to see how you change over time. However, DBT got me through some of the worst months of my life. I was suicidal and constantly upset and depressed and the distress tolerance methods really helped me through that. I also had some success using the interpersonal effectiveness skills. I was able to have a productive conversation with a significant other that acknowledged his feelings and didn't blame him for mine. I'm also more capable of tolerating and recognizing emotions. I didn't know what I was feeling before. I just knew it was bad. Now I'm able to put names to my feelings and validate them. I can see how they might be ineffective but I can also identify why I might be feeling them. I've also learned how to just sit with these emotions and let them subside on their own. In DBT it's called "surfing an emotional wave". I could go on and on. DBT isn't like a cult. It's like a class. I'm learning things that tend to come naturally to other people but that I have always struggled with.

DBT is also focused on building a life for yourself, which is really important. No other therapy has really focused so much on goals and measures of progress for improving my life the way that DBT has- which is a similarity is has with CBT. I was never in CBT. I was in talk therapy and absolutely hated it. I never saw any improvement. I think the real benefit of DBT is that I'm being active with my mental health. I'm learning things and using those tools every day. I'm not just talking to some lady about how my mom ignored me as a child or knew I was purging and restricting throughout high school and didn't get me help because she wanted me to be thinner. Those conversations just upset me and made things worse. I never wanted to "heal my inner child". I wanted things to feel better. And that's what DBT focuses on.

I won't try to prove you wrong. Different strokes for different folks. If you think DBT is BS you can think that. But I think it's a really useful tool to improve your life if you have BPD. It isn't a cure-all. I'm certain some people don't take to it. It's also worth mentioning that the practitioner also matters as does the practice. I'm in a really comprehensive DBT program. I spend over 2 hours in therapy every week with class and an individual session with a DBT therapist. I also get phone coaching which means I can call my therapist's cell phone if I have an issue and she will talk me through whatever is happening and get me to use skills. That pretty much saved my life in May. The practice I go to is really fancy and expensive. I know not everyone gets that experience (which is why I attend every session on time and am pretty obsessed with my treatment) so YMMV based on what kind of DBT you have access to and your therapist.

-- Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:32 pm --

twistednerve wrote:
I think DBT and CBT are no more than variants of exercises present in many religions from Asia, as well. However, it is being sold as effective medical treatment for psychiatric illnesses in 2014.

Before you make posts like this, I think you actually need to educate yourself on DBT, TN. Mindfulness is a core philosophy and technique of DBT, but it isn't its entirety. There are 4 main parts: mindfulness, emotional regulation, distress tolerance, and interpersonal effectiveness.

AmorousDestruction wrote:Before you make posts like this, I think you actually need to educate yourself on DBT, TN. Mindfulness is a core philosophy and technique of DBT, but it isn't its entirety. There are 4 main parts: mindfulness, emotional regulation, distress tolerance, and interpersonal effectiveness.

Distress tolerance seens very like Kṣānti (kshanti); translated as patience.
Mindfullness very like Dhyāna. Translated as concentration.

What do they mean by interpersonal effectiveness and emotinal regulation?

Those other two ideas still seen buddhism to me. Probrably if I got a clearer picture of the other two there will aslo be a mapping.

creative_nothing wrote:

AmorousDestruction wrote:Before you make posts like this, I think you actually need to educate yourself on DBT, TN. Mindfulness is a core philosophy and technique of DBT, but it isn't its entirety. There are 4 main parts: mindfulness, emotional regulation, distress tolerance, and interpersonal effectiveness.

Distress tolerance seens very like Kṣānti (kshanti); translated as patience.
Mindfullness very like Dhyāna. Translated as concentration.

What do they mean by interpersonal effectiveness and emotinal regulation?

Those other two ideas still seen buddhism to me. Probrably if I got a clearer picture of the other two there will aslo be a mapping.

Yeah. There's totally some eastern religion to it. Linehan gives credit where credit is due and my class leader/therapist is well read on books on mindfulness and Buddhist practice.

Interpersonal effectiveness is pretty much skills focused on how we interact with others. Learning when and how to say "no". How to prioritize different things in your interactions with others- your self-esteem, the relationship, or getting what you want. Skills for acknowledging the thoughts and opinions of others while making your thoughts clear. Basically just improving communication skills.

Emotional regulation focuses on being able to identify emotions both mentally and physically. Learning how our body reacts in states of anger. And how we can tolerate emotions.

I've only been through those modules once so I need to brush up on specifics, but that's the general gist.

Emotional regulation focuses on being able to identify emotions both mentally and physically. Learning how our body reacts in states of anger. And how we can tolerate emotions.

This is also a buddhism practice. It is develop mainly trhough meditation, but it works as a cycle.

AmorousDestruction wrote:Interpersonal effectiveness is pretty much skills focused on how we interact with others. Learning when and how to say "no". How to prioritize different things in your interactions with others- your self-esteem, the relationship, or getting what you want. Skills for acknowledging the thoughts and opinions of others while making your thoughts clear. Basically just improving communication skills.

Well, maybe here will lie a major difference.

Well buddhism will have its code of conduct, but it is not geared to modern society. Anyway, people are adviced to follow society rules, but nevertheless that should be taken as an authorization to kill insects for instance;

Nevertheless it has a great effect. Telling the truth for instance make your life a way simpler. Not getting involved with married people also. And so on...

Yet another post where to bark BPD, tangential to under cover topic.

"Brief study of DBT," Are you really familiar with the topic in more detail? Try CBT's, it might do you some good.

twistednerve wrote:CBT is no more of rehashing common sense and stating the obvious than other forms of therapy.

Yes, quite a number of things may seem like stating the obvious - this also, I admit, but the simplest solution may well be the best. At the heart of the problem.

A cult? Little high degree of black and white thinking.

twistednerve wrote:But please, prove me incorrect if you can.

Others need to succeed in it? It is up to you.