fed up

am i the only one that is fed up with all of the stereotypes that come along with bpd?

as a person trying her gosh-darned hardest to be mature and informed about her illness, and doing her best to recover despite the extreme difficulties that come along with this illness, i get more than a little irked everytime i read/hear people using stereotypical generalizations when it comes to those who are suffering - truly suffering - from bpd.

this includes such words/expressions as: childish, bitchy, manipulative, cold-hearted, un-caring, whiney, selfish, a hopeless case, etc.

sure we all have our faults. with bpd a person is more likely to exhibit some these characteristics, but that doesn't mean that everyone who has bpd should have to be stereotyped into being this way. it doesn't mean that all of our emotions are just exaggerations of something unimportant, that we feel things strongly for no reason, that we are only concerned with ourselves and don't care about anyone else, that we will do whatever it takes to get what we want - including hurting someone else - or that we are too f-ed up to get better. and likewise every person who does act that way doesn't necessarily have bpd.

am i the only one fed up with this? i think people are largely misinformed and ignorant about bpd - and what it is like to live with it. and i am tired of having to read/hear such stupidity.

thank you for listening to my rant.

erin

Borderlines can be this way to some people and they have a right to talk about their hurtful experieces. I do think that restraint and empathy could be applied however. Yet everyone is different and some people are still working through their own childhood issues and Borderline experiences so they may be unable to restrain and empathize. So Erin try to ignore if possible these comments as they may not apply to you.

thanks for the reply jay. i know what you mean.

it wasn't anything/anyone here that got to me. just going around different places on the internet and seeing some of the things that people write about people with bpd. i understand that there have been plenty of people who have experienced bad things due to a bpd's behavior. but that doesn't make us all bad people.

bleh. i guess i was just ranting. and trying to get some kind of conversation going on this board. the bpd forum here is pretty dead. at least not as active as it should be.

:{

and i guess i was just having a bad day.

erin

I understand how hurtful it can be to have a problem that seems insurmountable and then get kicked when you're down and you are fighting like hell to get back up.

Hopefully this perspective will help you understand where people are coming from when they write these things.

First of all many PD's especially the cluster B's are like drug addicts. And any recovering drug addict will tell you, you have to take ownership for your actions, past and present and realize that you have deeply wounded people and they are going to be very cautious of trusting you again. The truly repentant understand this. You should especially understand their caution when you realize the recovery rate for cluster B's is extremely low.

The other reason people post such harsh generalizations is to keep those victimized by cluster b's on the road to recovery. Many people(like myself) who get involved with BPD or HPD types are dependant masochists. They can endure years of the abuse and not even realize they are letting someone suck the life blood out of them. Even after enduring incredible acts of cruelty they still long for the idealized mirage of the person they thought they fell in love with, but never truly existed. This can take years to get through their head. 4 years after my ex and I split up and she did everything in her power to ruin my life, I still have to slap myself when I start to "long" for the past when we were together.

This is where the harsh language needs to be posted to get the clinging victims to face the reality of what the relationship really was, a nightmare of control, manipulation and exploitation.

These are the typical behaviours of cluster b's, heck it's practically the definition. So I understand it's difficult to hear people use these terms to characterize people with your disorder, but they are the facts, but they don't have to describe your future. So I urge you to not let the harsh words discourage you, but let it fire you up to make sure you never give up on your recovery so that not only will you no longer hurt others in the same way, but you will be able to truly relate and empathize with others and experience a real meaningful relationship for yourself.

Starchecker,

Erin complains about the stereotypes and generalizations, and you add some more of those?

I peeked at your other posts and to me you appear to be on a crusade against, what you call, "Cluster B's".

Edit: I've now actually read them through and I can understand you have some grudges. But still, I'd ask you not to generalize and try not to package your anger in this way. It does not help in generating postive feelings towards you.

to starchecker:

i totally get your point. i appreciate your thoughtful reply, and i can definately see where you are coming from, and why certain people would talk about bpd this way, but i must point out that you have said some things that simply aren't true regarding bpd.

for example, the recovery rate is not really as "extremely low" as you think/say it is. there are many many people out there with bpd who acknowledge their illness, take the appropriate steps neccessary to learn about it and get the treatment that is going to help them, and who work very very hard to get better. the recovery rate of bpd is getting better all of the time. to say that it isn't is uneccessary and discouraging.

These are the typical behaviours of cluster b's, heck it's practically the definition. So I understand it's difficult to hear people use these terms to characterize people with your disorder, but they are the facts

but they simply aren't the facts. "bitchy, cold-hearted, abusive, etc" are not diagnostic criteria. and no psychologist/psychiatrist/psychotherapist with any brains or common sense is going to diagnose someone with bpd because they exhibit abusive or whiney childish behavior. people can in fact be bitchy, cold-hearted, abusive, etc, without having a mental illness. it happens all the time. these people are usually criminals. and likewise a person can have bpd without becoming an abusive criminal or an incapacitated child. these characteristics are not "practically the definition" of bpd. you are simply wrong here.

to make sure you never give up on your recovery so that not only will you no longer hurt others in the same way, but you will be able to truly relate and empathize with others and experience a real meaningful relationship for yourself.

i appreciate your input really, and trust me it does fire me up, but you are completely wrong in your assumption of me and my life. i have had my moments, sure, but you have no clue as to what i have ever done in the past or present, and you are in no place to tell me that i am hurting others by having bpd, as if that is the only indicator of this illness. and also: i do empathize with people. i empathize and sympathize with them very well. the fact that some people with bpd can't empathize with others does not make it an indicator of bpd either. it does not mean all people with bpd are like this. the fact that you even said this to me when you don't know me or my situation, or what it is like to be me or be in my situation, is very offensive.

this is exactly what irked me in the first place.

i wasn't trying to start an argument. i was just very discouraged when i really started realizing what some people believe about bpd and people with it. it just isn't right. and it is counter-productive. i think these people are misinformed and biased by unusually bad personal experiences with bpd (or people that supposedly had it though they sound more like anti-social psychopaths to me), and they contribute more harm than good, to the bpd community.

i wish people would make more of an effort to learn about what bpd really is and what it is like to have it. there wouldn't be these misconceptions. and people wouldn't be able to put all the blame of abusive behavior on bpd anymore.

ugh. i am so exasperated.

erin

Hi Erin, yeah the cluster B stuff is out the window. Aspd is cluster B and has nothing to do with us.

___________________________
to those that have danced the bpd dance with someone not treated....................

We have more empathy than we need.
We are truely emotional people.
Our [i]hx cannot be changed but we can recover. If this were not possible why do they have DBT? Over time after we are dx'd, if it is a correct dxs. We learn to boundary, we learn to reparent ourselves, and we learn control. Many other dxs can not or will not do this.
We are the one group that seeks treatment, meds, anger management and self help. We do care.

If you have had a bad experience with a bpd, I'm sorry. I truely am, but we are all different. And that is where the stereotyping is unjust.

It is hurtful, embarressing, misunderstood, and just plain stigma.

Were you also aware that there are two pathway factors of bpd. Also subcatagories?
http://www.aaets.org/article20.htm

Much of the outcome of a victim of ptsd will develope either
1 ptsd
2 rape trauma
3 DID
4 any pd
5 several types of bpd. Depending on the amount of nurturing after the hx criteria has set in.

So in summary to qualify us all as the same, or bad is unjustified. Yes, much of our criteria is the same, thus an outline of dx, but it is based on our hx, not our behavior is all cases. That would be unfair and unprofessional.[/i]

Well...couldn't help noticing the thread title from you Sobriainebrietas...and as a graphic demostration of Karma, in that what you put out there comes back round, I'll give you a bit of hand, maam. :dofs-cap:

In another thread I described my relationship with my now ex-girlfriend. I described her behavior and moods and how that impacted on me. See "I guess you get this quite alot here huh". I'll update that thread soon so you know exactly what the situation is now, but it's alot better. (In short I managed to sell the idea that she might have BPD to her by being very understanding and drawing comparisons with PTSD which makes it sound less acusatory.) Clever Caladonian...

I believe I used some of the words that have caused you to become slightly upset Sob...and that of course is where the problem lies. BP's do sometimes exhibit these characteristics. So how do you reconsile this without sounding too aggresive and heavy handed, while at the same time not ignoring the behavior.

The way I have got around this is by educating myself. As a non-BP, and as an idividual in ANY relationship, those relationships are MY business. If I'm having a problem with anyone, about anything, ever, it's in my interests to sort it out, otherwise we both suffer. So I educated my self about my ex's condition.

What I found out was that the behavior is not chosen behavior. It was aquired...by dysfunctional/abusive relationships by people who should have known better.

I learnt that BP's suffer twice. The first time when they are abused and then a second time when they use what they learnt from that abuse in latter relationships. They never win in a sense. They were programmed wrong and then suffer because of the bad programming.

The therapist role is to assist the client to recover themselves.

The therapist validates the client, not telling them that they are wrong. Because in a sense they AREN'T wrong. They're doing what they were programmed to do. That's not wrong.

Once the client feels validatted the therapist works on helping the client change un-helpful parts of their behaviour for the clients good...no-one elses.

The recovery process is assited with a therapist who accepts that no-matter what the client does, they are truely trying their best to get better. Because BP's do their best everyday anyway...and their used to hard work...because it's all hard work with BPD.

And finally, name calling...using words like manipulative maybe true in describing their behavior...but it's not something anyone should call whole people. No-one IS manipulative. The just behave manipulativly sometimes. No-one IS a bitch, but some people can be bitchy sometimes. And if this behavior is coming from a BP then it's a defense machanism to stop them getting hurt even more...

Starchecker...you stayed in that relationship for your own reasons. You were looking to gain something which never arrived. If you're angry with your ex then I know you're even more angry with yourself...that's you deal...so deal with it...if you can't just be sad for a bit then move on then that's tough but...that's your issue. I know you're injured and upset but constant anger and accusations is hurting you even more...easy to say...difficult to realise...good luck.

Sob...thank you again for your support...chin up because there are peole out there who make the effort...you should know...you're one of them......x

drifting wrote:Starchecker,

Erin complains about the stereotypes and generalizations, and you add some more of those?

I peeked at your other posts and to me you appear to be on a crusade against, what you call, "Cluster B's".

Edit: I've now actually read them through and I can understand you have some grudges. But still, I'd ask you not to generalize and try not to package your anger in this way. It does not help in generating postive feelings towards you.

What generalizations and stereo types did I add? I didn't even reference the vulgar terms she originally included like bitchy. I used controlling, manipulative and exploitive, do you deny these are common traits?

Notice I never said these are THE behaviors of a cluster B, I said "typical", I also didn't say they were THE definition, I said "practically". I chose those words intentionally so as not to put a blanket statement over everyone.

I use the phrase Cluster B precisely becuase I don't want to generalize all BPD's as this or all HPD's as that, so I use the grouping to assert my statements. It's called a cluster for a reason(similar attributes), but yes they are different. As far as generalizations go, I haven't read all of the threads yet, but I am the one that has made posts referencing that not everyone fits the exact criteria of one or the other. Not all BPD's are exactly the same(individualty plays a part) and not everyone can fit nicely as an HPD, BPD, NPD or ASPD. Disorders are best described in terms of a spectrum, like a rainbow, you can't always tell where one ends and another begins.

So the cluster B term is used to talk in general terms as she is addressing a general issue of why do people use such harsh words. I was not attacking her in any way, and it appears she was able to understand that. Thank you Erin.

After reading some of the responses I had to re-read my post to see what the heck I put in there, but after re-reading it I see some people took what they wanted out of it, and put words and intentions in my mouth I never meant or wrote.

I also was careful to say that Cluster B's have extremely low rates of recovery, I didn't say BPD's. Even if BPD's had a 50% recovery rate, what about the other 3 in the cluster? So the statement is valid. I don't know what the actual recovery rate of BPD's is, but I would imagine it's less than 50%.

Again she asked an honest question so I gave an honest answer, that was somehow taken as an assault on BPD's which I never even specifically addressed BPD's in my statements.

If the similarities of the drug addict was a hurtful generalization, that comes from Dr. Samual Vaknin who admits he is a Narcissist himself. He believes all Cluster B's are variations of the narcissistic disorder(I suppose that's typical of a narcissist ), I happen to agree with him. Childhood trauma seems to be the common theme(but not exclusively) and depending on the individual they may learn to depend on a different form of the drug known as Narcissistic supply, hence the variations of Narcissism that form the 4 disorders listed in the Cluster B, also known as the Dramatic/Erratic cluster.

With this in mind, the addiction to an emotional stimulus to help anesthetise the inner pain is what makes the drug addiction analogy helpful. All 12 step programs have very similar methods whether it's for drugs, gambling, sexual, etc. And what is typical in these programs is owning up to the damage they have caused others and being able to see and understand the anger their loved ones may now feel for them, and accept the fact they might not be ready to forgive the pain the addict caused them, hence the hurtful words.

The appropriate response of the addict is to not take ownership of the words and condemn themselves further, but neither should they become indignant by the harsh terms and question the right of the other to feel that way. This is where ownership and maturity show, they can understand and empathize with the feelings of the other person.

These are explanations to her questions. I myself am against going on a crusade to get back at your ex, I think revenge and bitterness will ruin you.

CALADONIA:

I understand I stayed in the relationship longer than I should have, but I thought she could get better. You are right after looking back on it I realized the things I was most angry about wasn't the things she did to me, but the things I LET her do. Once you get on the road to healing you do understand that no one can do anything to you that you dont let them(except the things during the 2 year divorce, that I couldn't stop).

Again I don't see the constant accusations that you are referencing. I have a few friends that I care about very much who are borderline with some narcissism mixed in. After what my ex did to me, this one girl was afraid I would hate her if I found out she had one of the B-disorders. I wouldn't hate her at all, I care about her very deeply. I also firmly believe to the core of my being that anyone can be healed, but that doesn't change the reality that most don't. There was another girl I worked with that was a very strong Narcissist, and I really liked hanging out with her, but I knew not to drop the boundaries and let her get too close. The behaviour gets more pathological the greater the intimacy involved.

So I still feel very strongly that being romantically involved with someone with these issues is very dangerous, and getting out is the safest thing to do. However I have no problem with friendships. I don't think romantic relationships are the place for healing to take place anyway. If you are already in a marriage and want to stick it out I would have no problem agreeing, but for those that have had it blow up, and have been left, then I think the person needs to face the harsh realities of what they have been through and stop the fantasies about what they hope the other person will do.

I think it's interesting that you accuse me of attacking her or all BPD's, when I never directly addressed her or even the BPD specifically, but your statement to me was "if you can't just be sad for a bit then move on then that's tough, but that's your issue." I've done nothing to you, and you have no compassion only tough words, but I am supposedly the bad guy for trying to help her see the other side.

sobriainebrietas wrote:to starchecker:

i totally get your point. i appreciate your thoughtful reply, and i can definately see where you are coming from, and why certain people would talk about bpd this way, but i must point out that you have said some things that simply aren't true regarding bpd.
erin

Erin I would like to say that your response definitely shows your ability to see where another person is coming from, so you were able to "get" what I was trying to say in my post.

I just read your signature and notice you are an INFP, so am I. Just learning about my personality type helped clear up so many things, suddenly the whole world started to make sense. I think it's a pretty cool type, and is very rare as you know.

Keep up the good work as I am trying to do myself. Sometimes I feel hopeless, I don't feel or see any progress at times, but I know I can never go back.