philosophical rantings....*TW*

Warning: Hopey-faithy people shouldn't read this if they're afraid of being invalidated. Sorry.

I'm wondering if others here are more of the "logical" type that struggle with "spiritual" stuff. I always seem to get people lecturing to me with AA type stuff (i.e. surrender to a higher power). I always end up scoffing at it because it seems ridiculous to force myself to believe something because it's more comforting rather than because it's objectively real. It's nice to think there's a plan for me, that i'll eventually find somewhere I truly belong, that I'll eventually meet some special person that doesn't end up being a mirage. I envy people who think there's a plan so much I start to hate them. I can't see it. All I see is an infinite mess of entropy with tons of variables beyond my control. I can't control other people. I can't make people have time for me. I can't force puzzle pieces to fit when they don't match up. It seems to only answer is "faith", but I can't have it. It's not my damn fault and it's not for a lack of trying. It just isn't real to me.

I'm sick of having to apologize for being a realist in this world of delusional simpletons. I'm sick of having false optimism crammed down my throat. It doesn't help. It's judgmental poison. I notice a lot of optimists aren't even that self-aware. They preach positivity on the surface while being bitter underneath. They are the biggest frauds. They're good at hiding. Maybe that's how they're brought up. Told it's wrong to express anything negative ever. They can't comprehend that I don't have the option to be like them. I can't bottle $#%^ up. It's actually dangerous. I don't want to become the next rampage killer. They seriously don't even get it. They don't see the poison it is.

frostfern wrote:I'm wondering if others here are more of the "logical" type that struggle with "spiritual" stuff. I always seem to get people lecturing to me with AA type stuff (i.e. surrender to a higher power). I always end up scoffing at it because it seems ridiculous to force myself to believe something because it's more comforting rather than because it's objectively real. It's nice to think there's a plan for me, that i'll eventually find somewhere I truly belong, that I'll eventually meet some special person that doesn't end up being a mirage. I envy people who think there's a plan so much I start to hate them. I can't see it. All I see is an infinite mess of entropy with tons of variables beyond my control. I can't control other people. I can't make people have time for me. I can't force puzzle pieces to fit when they don't match up. It seems to only answer is "faith", but I can't have it. It's not my damn fault and it's not for a lack of trying. It just isn't real to me.

I'm sick of having to apologize for being a realist in this world of delusional simpletons. I'm sick of having false optimism crammed down my throat. It doesn't help. It's judgmental poison. I notice a lot of optimists aren't even that self-aware. They preach positivity on the surface while being bitter underneath. They are the biggest frauds. They're good at hiding. Maybe that's how they're brought up. Told it's wrong to express anything negative ever. They can't comprehend that I don't have the option to be like them. I can't bottle $#%^ up. It's actually dangerous. I don't want to become the next rampage killer. They seriously don't even get it. They don't see the poison it is.

Of course it's all a fraud.

I really relate to your post frostfern.

I have always found other's insistence that I should believe in God, go to church, convert to their religion, or even their insistence I try to be optimistic and look on the bright side, as very invalidating.

What if I was being robbed and someone was holding a gun to me? Should I ignore what is happening and look on the bright side? No, I should face the reality of the situation and deal with it, or I would very likely die.

Life is the same way, right? I don't want to live life with blinders on, refusing to see what is real because others insist its better to have faith and to blindly trust that there is some divine plan, or that its always better to ignore the bad things in the world and to force yourself to only acknowledge the good. Maybe those strategies work for some, but they don't work for me.

I knew since I was 12 years old that I was an atheist/agnostic. I'm sure its more comforting to be religious and believe that everything happens for a reason, etc., and in a way I envy people like that, but if you don't believe that, you simply don't. You can't force yourself to believe something that you don't believe, that doesn't ring true to your logic, or to your real life experience.

It frustrates me when people harp on about religion for this reason. I feel invalidated. I can't even discuss real world current events with many people in my life because they refuse to admit there is any evil going on anywhere, when there is clearly evil going on everywhere.

I crave someone I can have an honest dialogue with about these things, that won't invalidate my opinions and won't try to force me over to their belief system. I don't have anyone in my life like this at this point.

I am a person of faith. I am not triggered by your post; I understand you and your POV.

I used to be agnostic bordering on atheism. I fully accept science, no question about that; in fact I love science. I understand why atheists are atheists. I'm educated. I studied science in college.

But the thing is, even with science as our tool, there is the unknown about many things. Science has yet to answer everything. I've read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins (whom I respect greatly). I get it. It's hard to have faith. It doesn't seem realistic. I know that it seems like Christ is just another repetition of another so-called historical offspring of a deity, like Horus, like Hercules.

I can't go into detail why I do have faith, as it's too personal. People can try to give me "logical" explanations of experiences I had, experiences that nobody can fully understand because they didn't experience them as I did. In one instance, something more than just a "feeling" happened to me - an actual action occurred that left me breathless and solidified absolute faith in God. I would elaborate more about these experiences, but can't due to privacy (you can PM me) and sure, people can scoff and doubt me, but I was not alone during one of the experiences and this person shared what I experienced (so it isn't all in my head, so to speak). All I can say is that I have found faith, in ways that are bewildering, and yet has helped me in my "disorder" - more than any psychiatrist or mental health professional has. So, faith is, to me, a good thing, because it helps me.

That's just my story, though, and I don't expect others to understand, nor agree. I only wish everyone else the best in their struggle with BPD, no matter what your religious affiliation is, or lack thereof.

I'd rather have real spirituality than the secular religion of "optimism" that prevails in the culture I live in. I put optimism in quotes because I don't have a problem with genuine optimism. I only have a problem with culturally enforced conformist optimism, which should be called denial-ism. I get the sense that most people are able to hold all kinds of contradictory information in their head at once. It's as if being less aware of themselves gives them the strength to just kind of carry on indefinitely. Must be nice. I want to tell these people "it's fine if being fake works for you, unfortunately it doesn't work for me so stop pushing it on me". The modern secular religion of "optimism" has little in common with real spirituality, neither western nor eastern traditions. Both Christianity and Buddhism at least admit things are indeed ###$ up. They admit the world is broken. Their head isn't stuck quite so far up their ass. I don't feel they can back up their promise, but they at least require admission of something, something beyond the trite flippant chorus of "think positive".

Completely get it and agree FF.

I have no 'faith' in anything whatsoever, I don't have any religious affiliations and I do not believe that there is an underlying truth, sense or purpose to the world. I don't even believe that there is a tangible reality out there which is shared by all.

The way I see it, it's all just chaos and we have developed structures (culture/s) that buffer this fact with varying degrees of success - religion, faith, spirituality cannot offer access to a higher being/purpose/knowledge about 'the world' because it isn't there to be accessed.

Having said that I don't have an issue with anybody who finds comfort or meaning in their beliefs - only with those who spout platitudes or who are rigid and dogmatic about them.

frostfern wrote:I'd rather have real spirituality than the secular religion of "optimism" that prevails in the culture I live in. I put optimism in quotes because I don't have a problem with genuine optimism. I only have a problem with culturally enforced conformist optimism, which should be called denial-ism. I get the sense that most people are able to hold all kinds of contradictory information in their head at once. It's as if being less aware of themselves gives them the strength to just kind of carry on indefinitely. Must be nice. I want to tell these people "it's fine if being fake works for you, unfortunately it doesn't work for me so stop pushing it on me". The modern secular religion of "optimism" has little in common with real spirituality, neither western nor eastern traditions. Both Christianity and Buddhism at least admit things are indeed ###$ up. They admit the world is broken. Their head isn't stuck quite so far up their ass. I don't feel they can back up their promise, but they at least require admission of something, something beyond the trite flippant chorus of "think positive".

I agree with you again. Its like I could have written your posts myself. Denial, exactly, that is what is going on with the majority of the people. That is why evil is allowed to happen and so many people let it, they ignore it, even when its in their face, most people are so desensitized from watching violent movies that it doesn't affect them. Maybe I'm more sensitive since I'm a BPD but I get a visceral reaction when I see suffering. I feel it as if its happening to me or someone I love, it doesn't matter if its happening halfway around the world to people who look nothing like me. It might as well be happening to my own child. I react to it and then people think I'm crazy for that. They want to pretend its not happening or they think it must be happening for some good reason "because God doesn't let bad things happen." Who is the crazy one? To me, they clearly are the crazy ones.

I might be going off on a tangent. But I also agree with you about spirituality. People have gotten away from it. Thousands of years ago before the other organized religions I'm sure people were much more spiritual. Spirituality was about being in tune with natural and the deep rhythms of the earth and being in tune with everyone around you. Like an empath I guess. A few years ago I went to live in a third world country because I wanted to get away from the brainwashing of our culture and listen to the earth, if you will, commune with the earth and connect with everything on a spiritual level. I feel I did achieve this on some level. So when people judge me or criticize me because I don't follow their organized religion I get frustrated but I don't know what to do about it. The irony is, I feel I'm the more spiritually evolved one but they judge me because I don't have my "membership card" to their church. Its so hypocritical. I have stopped fighting or arguing with them because its futile.

I mean no offense to Angeltears or others who have difference beliefs, for the record. I believe everyone is entitled to their beliefs. What I object to is trying to force beliefs onto others, or letting bad things happen with the justification of religion.

justagirl00 wrote:I agree with you again. Its like I could have written your posts myself. Denial, exactly, that is what is going on with the majority of the people. That is why evil is allowed to happen and so many people let it, they ignore it, even when its in their face, most people are so desensitized from watching violent movies that it doesn't affect them. Maybe I'm more sensitive since I'm a BPD but I get a visceral reaction when I see suffering. I feel it as if its happening to me or someone I love, it doesn't matter if its happening halfway around the world to people who look nothing like me. It might as well be happening to my own child. I react to it and then people think I'm crazy for that. They want to pretend its not happening or they think it must be happening for some good reason "because God doesn't let bad things happen." Who is the crazy one? To me, they clearly are the crazy ones.

I might be going off on a tangent. But I also agree with you about spirituality. People have gotten away from it. Thousands of years ago before the other organized religions I'm sure people were much more spiritual. Spirituality was about being in tune with natural and the deep rhythms of the earth and being in tune with everyone around you. Like an empath I guess. A few years ago I went to live in a third world country because I wanted to get away from the brainwashing of our culture and listen to the earth, if you will, commune with the earth and connect with everything on a spiritual level. I feel I did achieve this on some level. So when people judge me or criticize me because I don't follow their organized religion I get frustrated but I don't know what to do about it. The irony is, I feel I'm the more spiritually evolved one but they judge me because I don't have my "membership card" to their church. Its so hypocritical. I have stopped fighting or arguing with them because its futile.

I mean no offense to Angeltears or others who have difference beliefs, for the record. I believe everyone is entitled to their beliefs. What I object to is trying to force beliefs onto others, or letting bad things happen with the justification of religion.

I couldn't have said it better. Have you read books by Morris Berman? He's not a literary genius and I don't agree with every one of his opinions, but nobody else dives to the root of things quite like he does.

We really do live in a very crass and soulless world. It's brutal on those who feel things more deeply than others.

I like hiking, but I haven't found it to be a good way to meet similar minded people. Most hiking groups operate like a herd. There's a "leader" who sets the pace. If you want to stop to take a picture or take a moment to reflect, you're expected to run to catch back up with the group. People constantly talk about mindless random #######4 that has everything to do with anything but what's directly around them. They're uncomfortable with silence lasting more than 5 seconds. Last time I went on a group hike, someone noticed that the sunset for about 10 seconds and then went back to looking up some random crap on their phone. People don't have any depth or curiosity about anything either. Every thing is a joke to them. I think I need to go back to going hiking by myself.

I don't know how to find like-minded people. It's like looking for needles in a hay stack. I live in Seattle. Where do you live?

I know what you mean frostfern. I’m not a religious person at all and thankfully don’t have anyone close to me who preaches it’s virtues. I know someone who is a born again Christian and likes to talk religion sometimes. It is incredibly frustrating having to listen to their extreme opinions. How evolution is a joke, the science is nonsense and anyone who believes in it is wrong. If I went around telling people that they are stupid for believing in something that has no evidence whatsoever to prove it’s existence, that would be viewed as being religiously insensitive and possibly offensive. But when the tables are turned, well that’s apparently ok. I’ve never understood how someone can supposedly hold Christian values, yet still have really judgemental and offensive opinions about homosexuality for example (or “alternative lifestyle choices” as he puts it). Anyway, that is a whole other topic.

I get your frustration completely though. As nice as it would be to have blind faith and believe in some higher power, my really logical thinking can’t do it. For me it’s like trying to delude yourself. I just can’t believe in something that can’t be proved or disproved. I also envy people who can do it. I find that so much of the “solution” that gets offered to issues like we all have here is always kind of faith based. Like you say continual optimism and belief in a better future that you can never seem to grasp now matter how much you try and work for it. Where despite all your experiences to date you continually get told you MUST keep believing.

I think it’s why I struggle to make DBT work for me. Someone here mentioned it in another thread and it made total sense. That people with BPD (or traits) who have a more “logical” bias as opposed to “emotional” bias struggle to take it up as completely. It’s got that whole Buddhism based spirituality stuff to it about the Universe being exactly as it’s supposed to be, that there are no absolute truths etc etc. Plus the IMPROVE skill where the P stands for Prayer and you are supposed to use that as a possible coping skill. If you are somewhat spiritual it’s a lot easier to believe in that idea that suffering has some sort of greater purpose to it. That there is some “reward” in it whether it be in an afterlife or in some sort of grand life lesson. I’d love to believe that, but I can’t trick myself into it despite a lot of trying. I wish there was some acknowledgement of that fact. That there was an alternative for people who struggle with blind faith.

Wow I really need to find someone like you to hang out with. I'm also on the west coast but about 1000 miles south of you. I also love to hike but could never hike in a group. I usually hike alone or with one other person. I hate hearing people talk about random stuff. I would prefer silence any day. Most people in general annoy me. I posted about that in another post.

I'm craving someone like you, who doesn't mind thinking outside of the mainstream, really questioning, thinking for yourself, forming your OWN opinions. Too many people are dependent on the media to tell them what to think and believe. People have lost their ability to use logic or common sense. Our society is crumbling. Its like Rome just before the Fall of Rome.

I've never heard of Morris Bergman but I will keep an eye out for that.

Its too bad we don't live nearer.