my therapist frustrates me

I don't understand her because she acts like she doesn't understand me. She teaches DBT. She must be used to dealing with borderlines. But still, she has a way of making me feel like I'm insane and hopeless. Last week I went in mildly upset, and left feeling worse than I have in a long time. We talk about circular thinking and about the fact that I have trouble letting go of things. I try, but then at random these thoughts just infiltrate my mind and I have to start all over again. Then she asks something like, "Well what does that do for you?" I look at her blankly and ask, "What do you mean?" And she says, "Well, it must do something for you, or else why would you keep doing it?" Damn it all, I don't do it ON PURPOSE! I feel like I have no control over my thoughts and emotions, isn't that kind of normal for someone with BPD? So then I feel even crazier, and spiral in this depression and self loathing. I'll never be happy because it seems the only way to do so would involve changing myself completely... and even though I hate myself, I hate most other people just as much... I envy them because they can get through life without being constantly plagued by depressive episodes that are triggered by the tiniest of things, but I still hate them...

She's acknowledged before that I am unusually aware of myself; that I can make all the necessary intellectual connections, but just can't seem to "do" anything with them. The emotional part of me still doesn't care about the intellectual part: they are separate. If they come together at all, it's the emotional side influencing the intellectual side- not the other way around. I'll just throw out there that I seem to have every trait of three different PDs: avoidant, borderline and dependent. I think it's the only reason why I can keep up the appearance of being "normal". No matter how crazy I feel on the inside at any given moment, usually either the avoidant or dependent will keep me in check... It works beautifully and horribly all at the same time...

Anyway. She just makes me feel more hopeless than I already feel. I'd do what I've done with past therapists, which is just stop going, but she expressed in the beginning that she wants to have a conversation about the "why"s and such if I don't want to continue therapy with her... And I want to avoid that conversation... But I will feel all this guilt and anxiety if I disappoint her by avoiding that conversation... Even if I plan on never speaking with her again. What. The. Hell. ?

Isn't DBT supposed to be an exercise in learning to understand and control your emotions? Wouldn't that be a lot like studying math in school?

If you were trying to understand a math problem but couldn't get the answer, what would you do? Study more and keep trying. Right? So, what's the difference between solving a math problem and solving a "life" problem?

Question: Do you have to be conscious of whether you are doing something for it to be real?

Story: I was in my last year of college when I OD-ed on drugs. Pretty bad. I almost died. Ended up in the hospital E.R. and I checked myself into a psych ward for three days because of it.
The psychologist there asked me, point blank, if I was trying to commit suicide. I denied it. No, I didn't lie. I really had no thought of committing suicide at the time I took the drugs.
We talked a little more. He asked me again. I denied again. I really meant it. Why would I voluntarily check myself in to the loony bin if I wanted to die?
A while later, he asked a third time. I got a little peeved and denied it a third time.
He came right out and said, "I think you WERE trying to commit suicide."

Do I have to consciously contemplate suicide in order to drop a half a gram of pure XTC in one sitting? (BTW: I know how potent molly is.)
So, I ask you. Was I trying to commit suicide?

Doesn't everybody decide how to act based on benefits? Personal benefit? Monetary benefit? Emotional Benefit? Sexual benefit? Psychological benefit? Isn't that the way nearly everybody lives? How are you different than every person who has ever lived? Of course you do and say things based on whether or not there is benefit to you. We all do. It's hard-wired into us.

Do you have to maintain a conscious thought as to the benefit or drawback for every one of your, words or deeds?

Let me answer that question by finishing my story.
My psychiatrist asked me about my feelings at the time I dropped XTC. It took several sessions. Twice a day for three days. I was in a locked ward. Remember?

I told the psych that I felt sad, lonely, hopless, helpless and afraid.
I told him that I wanted to use drugs as an escape from my feelings. (My exact words were "chemical vacation.")
I said that I didn't TRY to commit suicide but, in the back of my mind, I knew that dropping a half gram of molly MIGHT kill me.
If I walked into a room and I saw you about to drop a half-G, I would holler at you and try to stop you. "That §hit will KILL YOU!"
Yet, I downed it anyway.

Why would I do that?
What would the benefit be?
Do I have to consciously think about my actions for them to be real?

Aren't these the same three questions your therapist just asked you?

If you were trying to understand a math problem but couldn't get the answer, what would you do? Study more and keep trying. Right? So, what's the difference between solving a math problem and solving a "life" problem?

A math problem typically has an absolute solution. I don't see how a math problem can really be comparable to a life problem that has emotions attached to it and different possibilities- no absolute solution.

Doesn't everybody decide how to act based on benefits? Personal benefit? Monetary benefit? Emotional Benefit? Sexual benefit? Psychological benefit? Isn't that the way nearly everybody lives? How are you different than every person who has ever lived? Of course you do and say things based on whether or not there is benefit to you. We all do. It's hard-wired into us.

That is one way to look at it, and oversimplified. Does individuality not exist? Does everyone put all of those benefit types in the same order of importance? Are there never times when we need to weigh one against the other? Is there a simple mathematical formula that can tell me which benefit I should choose above another? I do things for the benefit of other people all the time. It's the only reason I have to live. So you'll say that benefits me psychologically then. But what if the action of pleasing other people satisfies me in one way, but is detrimental to me in another? It's never as simple as just doing the best thing for ourselves. Some of us don't know what the best thing would be.

Why would I do that?
What would the benefit be?
Do I have to consciously think about my actions for them to be real?

Aren't these the same three questions your therapist just asked you?

This is the problem. You are talking about actions. I am talking about thoughts. These are different issues. I cannot really deal with pondering whether I have to consciously think about thinking for my thoughts to be real.

Yes, I oversimplify but the idea is to use a simple concept which we understand to tease out answers to more complex problems. A simple example does not mean that the answer to a complex question is simple.

The thing I was getting at was that we learn through doing and gaining experience. We apply what we have learned to new problems and we keep trying. We don't simply say, "I don't know" and give up.

No, the idea of benefit and detriment has no black and white solution. In fact, the answer to benefit/detriment questions might change, from one situation to another and moment to moment. The benefit analysis often happens in the here and now.
Decisions aren't always right. I often make the wrong decision.
However, I do propose that nearly everybody does make that judgement on some level.

As a teenager, my father taught me that men should be sexually superior to women. As an adult, I often carry on a set of universal generalizations. I often look at women as sex objects to be manipulated. That is a VERY detrimental way of thinking but, still, I carry on with it.

It is patently wrong to objectify women but, still, I do it because it benefits me. I feel validated in my father's eyes. My father has been dead for thirty years but his attitudes still haunt me, decades later.

After 18 years of growing up under my father's abusive, misogynistic rule, would my sexist attitude be so ingrained that I would not even consciously think of it? Wouldn't I just look upon women as lesser beings to be used as I please?

Isn't that unconscious thinking?

I'm having anxiety about going back to therapy later today.
If no one wants to talk to me about it, fine. But you hijacking my thread and making it about your own life is worse than no one responding at all. I don't want to have a philosophical argument and I don't want to read about your issues with misogyny. Not what I need right now.

Okay. I understand.
My apologies for hitting your nerve. Sorry.

Just go to your therapist appointment today. Tell your therapist that you are anxious, say that some guy on the internet peeved you off and tell her why.

Good luck!

frowny face wrote:I don't understand her because she acts like she doesn't understand me. She teaches DBT. She must be used to dealing with borderlines. But still, she has a way of making me feel like I'm insane and hopeless. Last week I went in mildly upset, and left feeling worse than I have in a long time. We talk about circular thinking and about the fact that I have trouble letting go of things. I try, but then at random these thoughts just infiltrate my mind and I have to start all over again. Then she asks something like, "Well what does that do for you?" I look at her blankly and ask, "What do you mean?" And she says, "Well, it must do something for you, or else why would you keep doing it?" Damn it all, I don't do it ON PURPOSE! I feel like I have no control over my thoughts and emotions, isn't that kind of normal for someone with BPD? So then I feel even crazier, and spiral in this depression and self loathing.

The issues I've seen others, and myself, having with therapy is exactly what your expressing. So #1. Your not alone.

The question seems to be that you understand what is suggested, but applying it is another animal. And, it doesn't even feel natural.

DBT isn't that old. Even the book on it (by the person that came up with it) states that its new and evolving.

There is a common theme I've heard multiple, independant, people express: I understand what the therapist is saying, I want to make the effort, but HOW>?!@#!@#!@#@#$#!@!

I'm not sure if this is a problem with DBT, or the therapists doing it.

frowny face wrote: I'll never be happy because it seems the only way to do so would involve changing myself completely... and even though I hate myself, I hate most other people just as much... I envy them because they can get through life without being constantly plagued by depressive episodes that are triggered by the tiniest of things, but I still hate them...

Changing yourself I think is different than changing your behaviors to make your life better. I believe you can be you, maybe moreso, and feel better. Actually, in Zen and Buddhist teachings (what most of this is based on..although..Westernized), its accepted that you can't and shouldn't actually CHANGE. You can't. Your part of this world. You may find some reading on Buddhism interesting.

I find Buddhist teachings to be more understandable than DBTs interpretation of Zen.

frowny face wrote:She's acknowledged before that I am unusually aware of myself; that I can make all the necessary intellectual connections, but just can't seem to "do" anything with them. The emotional part of me still doesn't care about the intellectual part: they are separate. If they come together at all, it's the emotional side influencing the intellectual side- not the other way around. I'll just throw out there that I seem to have every trait of three different PDs: avoidant, borderline and dependent. I think it's the only reason why I can keep up the appearance of being "normal". No matter how crazy I feel on the inside at any given moment, usually either the avoidant or dependent will keep me in check... It works beautifully and horribly all at the same time...

Me too. We can say we're Borderline, or Avoidant, etc. But, those are all boxes, and, humans don't seem to fit in those very well. They are, however, a way to identify traits that might help bring some science to what is now, really behind.

I think you might rather have a 'personality disorder' that has TRAITS of all three. I too am able to seem normal, even though I'm not feeling so hot. So, your not alone there either. Maybe ask your doctor about this?

frowny face wrote:Anyway. She just makes me feel more hopeless than I already feel. I'd do what I've done with past therapists, which is just stop going, but she expressed in the beginning that she wants to have a conversation about the "why"s and such if I don't want to continue therapy with her... And I want to avoid that conversation... But I will feel all this guilt and anxiety if I disappoint her by avoiding that conversation... Even if I plan on never speaking with her again. What. The. Hell. ?

Understand you there too. Just say 'f it' and be straight with her. But DON'T expect any relief, and if its not working, find someone else. The upside is, you get practice expressing what doesn't work for you, which might help either get you and the therapist on the same page, or perhaps help you express to a potential next therapist what didn't work for you before. DBT is only 20 years old, most people doing it, have very little experience.

I totally understand this. When I went to the hospital I hated all my therapists there. They treated me like I was incompetent. They acted like everything was my fault. They wouldn't tell me anything and kept secrets. I had no say at all about my care plan. They wouldn't let me talk to my personal therapist, but rather gave me false hope about seeing her, or my friends. They said they wanted to see me at my worst, so they purposely triggered me. They wouldn't validate my feelings and made me feel like everything was my fault. I have BPD as well, they acted like I wanted to be that way... they kept me 6 days because I was "playing a game"? apparently I didn't hold up to their standards. I couldn't express my feelings.... if I did they kept me longer. I have nightmares about it.

darian22 wrote:I totally understand this. When I went to the hospital I hated all my therapists there. They treated me like I was incompetent. They acted like everything was my fault. They wouldn't tell me anything and kept secrets. I had no say at all about my care plan. They wouldn't let me talk to my personal therapist, but rather gave me false hope about seeing her, or my friends. They said they wanted to see me at my worst, so they purposely triggered me. They wouldn't validate my feelings and made me feel like everything was my fault. I have BPD as well, they acted like I wanted to be that way... they kept me 6 days because I was "playing a game"? apparently I didn't hold up to their standards. I couldn't express my feelings.... if I did they kept me longer. I have nightmares about it.

I think therapists just don't know what the f$#K to do with us.