Is this borderline baiting?

Let me provide an example of a recurring theme I had with my BPD ex:

Sometimes when we were going upstairs to bed and she had consumed some alcoholic beverages, as soon as we got upstairs to get ready for bedtime she'd start dysregulating and start saying "I want to go home" and once or twice during these episodes she even started to become hysterical and start running into doors, stumbling and falling, etc.

It took quite some time to realize what was going on but she was reacting the best way she knew how, to remove herself from an intense situation where she felt we were too close for her comfort, that she wasn't good enough for me and would eventually abandon her. I asked her about these episodes later and she said she felt like I didn't want her there...perhaps it was my facial expression or personality or whatever but she was dead wrong and it never crossed my mind. On one occasion she even instigated ruining the mood that would eventually lead to sex and when I didn't want to hold her in bed the way she wanted, she immediately wanted to leave.

Now in hindsight I realize what was going on: She was a very beautiful but insecure girl, had been molested between 4-7, and harbored very strong feelings for me for quite some time before we dated. Occasionally throughout our 8 month friendship she would sometimes say "I love you" and more often throughout the 1.5 months we were dating she would keep saying "I'm falling for you" and "I love you but don't take it the wrong way." Making love to her was our most intimate bonding experience and one we both enjoyed, however it drew her closer to me than she was comfortable with due to her insecurity and her knowledge that she wasn't good for me.

So here we have two people that do have love for one another but at the same time she felt I deserved better. Instead of getting more attached to me she wanted to withdraw from the situation, however the reaction I believe her subconscious wanted was me to just reaffirm how I felt about her, comfort her, and to just hold her, removing sex from the equation. Not quite the best way get the affirmation she really wanted but a good way of testing if someone TRULY does love you. If you don't truly love someone and are subjected to a behavior like this over and over again, you probably wouldn't be able to validate their feelings without a lot of experience.

This is I believe was a subconscious borderline baiting to alleviate abandonment fears.

littlearcher wrote:it's not a conscious manipulation and i'm not trying to hurt them, i just feel really fragile at the time and don't know how to express it.

from my experience, pwBPD aren't really good at expressing what they really want when they're dysregulating. all they know is they're feeling really emotional and hurt (pseudo PTSD) from something issues in their past and they shutdown and want to escape the situation rather than work through it like logical people.

it took me a long time to really understand the dynamic of what she was experiencing and how best to react to such situations but unfortunately it wasn't until she had found someone else and i was discussing some of the issues we experienced with other female friends. one friend was telling me that when a girl does this and says most guys would start getting angry and telling them how worthless they are. anyhow i've learned a lot from dating her and realized how i wasn't ready for someone so emotional when i was not emotional at all...that is until she ended the r/s and i realized how i really felt about her but couldn't express while in the r/s (other than sexually)

katana wrote:

Tyri0n wrote:I don't think most people with Asperger's would have enough emotional awareness to be able to target the weaknesses of their partner, etc.

Interpersonal awareness would be a better word than emotional awareness but yeah.

Tyri0n wrote:My ex girlfriend claims I have either NPD or BPD, so I was just checking to see if some of these things fit. I definitely think my self-esteem is too low for NPD. I think, in my case, it's kind of a way to for compensating for insecurity and low self-esteem, not being manipulative. I just wasn't sure if this fits with BPD or not.

You can have traits from different disorders and if your behaviour is a compensation for insecurity and low self-esteem and you're aware of that, you're acting a lot like a narcissist but you're either lacking control over your behaviour at the time(suggests presence of bpd type regulation problems,) or failing to see it at the time (subconsciously unable to face truth, suggests presence of npd type issues,) or fully aware of what you're doing and choosing to do it anyway (would suggest you may also have some other more dissocial type issues.) - or a mix of any of those and/or others.

I'm actually not really sure. I think it's a compensation for insecurity, as does my ex. My mother, however, thinks it's more like an impulsive/dysregulation problem.

I am aware of it at the time, but it's still hard to stop because it happens almost automatically. The closer someone gets to me, the more I put them down, both to them and with others. I can also simply avoid people and ooze negativity in multiple other ways, both to self and directed at people and institutions.

I think it's either one of or more likely a combination of these four things:

1. "I am unworthy of anyone liking me or wanting to spend significant time with me. Therefore, anyone who does is a loser. Then, this is reflected in my attitude towards them."

2. "If someone gets close to me, I am afraid they will see that I'm a hollow, empty person, so I have to get rid of them or throw up barriers (I also engage in a lot of avoidant behaviors too)."

3. "This person is better than me, like most of the world. Soon, they will realize it and reject me, so I have to reject them first (this also works at the group level)."

4. "I simply feel uncomfortable around this person" (usually happens the more I am around an individual)


Also, littlearcher, I have a similar problem with not being able to articulate my needs (or even being aware of them or accepting them as valid), but I consider that to be a separate problem, although it can feed into #4.

Finally, my attitude is typically "I deserve better" rather than "she deserves better." I feel like anyone who is willing to be with me must be very inferior. But then, at some point, my mood changes to something more positive about myself, maybe even inflated, but my opinion of them never goes up.

From what i've read and how I experienced it from my exw/BPD sometimes the reaction BPDs can have when they feel threatened is indeed to attack the persons biggest weakness who is threatening them. Usually the threat for pwBPD is obviously attachment/abandonment. My exw/BPD got super attached to me after we fell in love with each other and soon after did everything she could to hit my weaknesses to push me away. Luckily for both of us I understand now the many ways BPD can manifest in people and I don't hold those actions against her. I just back off for a bit and come back as a friend when I assume she's calmed down or detached. The reaction is pretty similar to that of say a cat you may own. Say you own a cat who you've had for years and they care a lot about you and you them. Maybe one day they fall on a piece of glass which leaves a huge gash and they are stuck on the floor in need of help. As soon as you rush over to pick the cat up and take it to the vet though the moment you touch it, it freaks out and claws and bites you. This is similar to per-say how some borderlines may be reacting when they do very mean/hateful things to people they care a lot about and who care a lot about them. In the case of the cat it doesn't mean to claw or bite you. It is just in so much pain it doesn't know what else to do in the moment. When my exwBPD fell in love with me or now when she begins to get too attached to me for her personal comfort level. Me coming around doing caring/loving things towards her at that moment is like me trying to hug her when this huge wound left by her parents was just reopened by the fears of attachment/abandonment. As soon as she cares about me too much the giant scar left by her parents is reopened and the next time I do something caring/loving she claws and bites me simply because she's in so much pain she doesn't know what else to do. A lot of times people who don't understand borderline can only explain these behaviors in pw/borderline by calling them manipulations. When it's a situation like the one I described it's usually not manipulation more than it is pain management for a pwBPD since when someone reacts the way I described they usually aren't really aware of everything they're doing until after the fact.

No problem! It's good to hear it helped. Also for anyone who read or reads my previous post keep in mind when I said when she "cares too much" I don't mean she got to an abnormal or unhealthy level of caring. It's just at a level that reopens her scars. But the level of caring/attachment may of been closer to the attachment levels a recovered pw/bpd or non feels in a relationship before she pushes me away to start to detach, but there's nothing inherently wrong in that level of caring/attachment necessarily. Just thought I'd clarify because I noticed someone down the road may misinterpret that!

Tyri0n
While it does sound like you do share some BPD traits (my condolences for that), there were some things that jumped out at me.

1. "I am unworthy of anyone liking me or wanting to spend significant time with me. Therefore, anyone who does is a loser. Then, this is reflected in my attitude towards them."

Typically, when someone likes a Borderline, the Borderline reacts with one of two responses: either obsessive elation or CIA-level suspicion. Eventually, the suspicion is going to come around anyway, but there's very rarely initial condemnation of a person, simply because they like us.

Finally, my attitude is typically "I deserve better" rather than "she deserves better." I feel like anyone who is willing to be with me must be very inferior. But then, at some point, my mood changes to something more positive about myself, maybe even inflated, but my opinion of them never goes up.

Inflated self-opinion? ¿Qué? I'm sorry, you lost me, here. No habla.

4. "I simply feel uncomfortable around this person" (usually happens the more I am around an individual)

This is more Avoidant talking than Borderline, another PD I am very familiar with. However, usually Avoidant tendencies will write a person off immediately, rather than get to know someone. It could be the Borderline interacting with it; believe me, they make a very interesting paradox.

All in all, it does sound like you do have some BPD traits. I don't suspect that you have full blown BPD, but then again, I'm only going by what I've read in a few posts and I'm no doctor, I'm just one of the people who takes lots of pills, so I wholeheartedly encourage you to take my opinion with a grain of salt, and a slice of lemon. Although straight up is better - training wheels mellow it out too much!

Conclave
I was thinking the same thing as Archer. That's a bloody fantastic analogy. Genius is the only word I can think of to describe it!

JohnnyBlaze wrote:Tyri0n
While it does sound like you do share some BPD traits (my condolences for that), there were some things that jumped out at me.

1. "I am unworthy of anyone liking me or wanting to spend significant time with me. Therefore, anyone who does is a loser. Then, this is reflected in my attitude towards them."

Typically, when someone likes a Borderline, the Borderline reacts with one of two responses: either obsessive elation or CIA-level suspicion. Eventually, the suspicion is going to come around anyway, but there's very rarely initial condemnation of a person, simply because they like us.

Finally, my attitude is typically "I deserve better" rather than "she deserves better." I feel like anyone who is willing to be with me must be very inferior. But then, at some point, my mood changes to something more positive about myself, maybe even inflated, but my opinion of them never goes up.

Inflated self-opinion? ¿Qué? I'm sorry, you lost me, here. No habla.

4. "I simply feel uncomfortable around this person" (usually happens the more I am around an individual)

This is more Avoidant talking than Borderline, another PD I am very familiar with. However, usually Avoidant tendencies will write a person off immediately, rather than get to know someone. It could be the Borderline interacting with it; believe me, they make a very interesting paradox.

All in all, it does sound like you do have some BPD traits. I don't suspect that you have full blown BPD, but then again, I'm only going by what I've read in a few posts and I'm no doctor, I'm just one of the people who takes lots of pills, so I wholeheartedly encourage you to take my opinion with a grain of salt, and a slice of lemon. Although straight up is better - training wheels mellow it out too much!

Conclave
I was thinking the same thing as Archer. That's a bloody fantastic analogy. Genius is the only word I can think of to describe it!

There's a form of Narcissistic PD I've read about that fits better; actually, it explains everything. Unfortunately, I think it's just a proposal and isn't actually in the DSM.

Has anyone ever heard of Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder (or Inverted Narcissism), and its potential to be confused with BPD?

If not, maybe Narcissism with borderline traits would fit, or Borderline with narcissistic traits, would be a fitting explanation.

How do I find a shrink who is even open to looking at Compensatory NPD? I feel like if I were to just go in with the data I have from two of my exes's and my mother, I'd probably get labeled with BPD even if it isn't totally accurate.

I don't know the subs of NPD that well and only a few subtypes of BPD... although there's usually some key traits you can use to determine which PD is the core PD for the person since NPDs can express BPD symptoms at times and BPDs can express NPD symptoms at times. Some key ones would be NPDs never participate in self-harm and almost never commit suicide unless their inflated self-image for extraordinary reasons can not be maintained in their own mind. Also NPDs although they have impulsive urges will never act on impulsive urges as they see this as a trait of weakness and would contradict their image of their "perfect" self. Another thing is if you're ever in an intense argument with a NPD or BPD who is stonewalling with projection/denial if you press the person if they are NPD they will most likely rage and storm off while a BPD will most likely in some way reveal the helpless pained person underneath if you press them too hard in an argument. Not saying you should start fights with people though! lol Anyway sometimes those things and a few other things I'm forgetting at the moment can help you determine if a person is at their core disorder NPD or BPD.

conclave wrote:I don't know the subs of NPD that well and only a few subtypes of BPD... although there's usually some key traits you can use to determine which PD is the core PD for the person since NPDs can express BPD symptoms at times and BPDs can express NPD symptoms at times. Some key ones would be NPDs never participate in self-harm and almost never commit suicide unless their inflated self-image for extraordinary reasons can not be maintained in their own mind. Also NPDs although they have impulsive urges will never act on impulsive urges as they see this as a trait of weakness and would contradict their image of their "perfect" self. Another thing is if you're ever in an intense argument with a NPD or BPD who is stonewalling with projection/denial if you press the person if they are NPD they will most likely rage and storm off while a BPD will most likely in some way reveal the helpless pained person underneath if you press them too hard in an argument. Not saying you should start fights with people though! lol Anyway sometimes those things and a few other things I'm forgetting at the moment can help you determine if a person is at their core disorder NPD or BPD.

Well, according to this, BPD fits better. What is the source of these differences?

littlearcher, I think you're right that those aren't objective sources. But I think it's good to be able to see how other's perceive you. I am often not very in touch with myself or am only vaguely aware or unaware of my motivations for my actions. This could fit with both NPD and BPD.

The reason I'm so obsessed with finding a PD is because I strongly believe I was misdiagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and, thus, unable to secure help for my real issues. Everyone who has experience with aspies, including aspies themselves, agree with this. I have diagnosed Nonverbal Learning Disorder, which few shrinks are even aware of, so it was easy to see the superficial similarities to Asperger's like the flat voice, then the relationship and social problems, and then the obsessive behaviors and interests and arrive at AS. I think NVLD + a PD would be a much better fit.

I went to a "social skills" therapy group for AS and was annoyed out of my mind by the other members. And then later asked "why are you here, at least at the surface, your social skills seem fine?"

Well, that's the problem. They are fine only on the surface. I think most people with Asperger's have the exact OPPOSITE problem.

Well the reason NPD and BPD are often confused is because they have some often times very similar core symptoms. Essentially immense feelings of internal emptiness is a common one from what I understand. The pwNPD will combat this emptiness via a huge inflated self-image created out of their own fantasy. Often times people consider pwNPD as walking around with just a mirror pointed back at themselves and you can tell because almost all the time they will relate everything in conversation back to themselves and if you even suggest to them you wonder how good they are at something you won't have to press them very hard for them to tell you they are the absolute best at it. Or perhaps everything they are involved in for that matter. They don't think of people as other people at all really. Strangers as potential tools to get what they want. And people they allow close to them as not really people but as extensions of themselves. Be careful if you get close to one. As soon as you turn into something that they don't want as a part of their image they will cut you off like a frostbitten limb!

PwBPD combat emptiness via other peoples self-images in some sense. Often times people could consider pwBPD as walking around with a broken mirror that suddenly shifts its shape into what the person on the other side wants to see. Yet in some respect it still probably looks broken to the pwBPD. They have no real sense of who they are often. They don't really understand why they do things until they've already happened. Also they have control issues since they are often times overwhelmed by emotions in times of stress. Where as a pwNPD sees self-control as one of the most important factors in their self-image. pwBPD will sometimes say another person completes who they are. They rely on other people to fill their emptiness as it gives them a sense of having a self-image of their own even if in reality it may largely be the self-image of another. It doesn't happen all the time i'm guessing but quite often for pwBPD. Also pwNPD don't have object consistency issues. Object consistency issues arise in pwBPD in which someone they immensely care for all of a sudden leaves physically for a long period or for some of the worst cases even for a moment they get intense emotions that that person does not exist anymore. Even if their logic is telling them otherwise. Whereas a pwNPD has no issues with people being absent physically typically. PwBPD will continue to have others be a crutch for their own self-image until they become so important for them and such a big portion of their self-image that they can't handle the thoughts of losing them. At that point the fear of losing them overwhelms them usually and they do something to cut the person they care for off or something to break the relationship with them for good as to get their assumption that the person will abandon them and the pain with it over with. Although they can have immense pain over the thoughts of losing someone and in the moment it just feels better for them to drop the person than deal with the pain. PwBPD feel emotions stronger than others. PwNPD don't really and if they do it's usually only anger they feel stronger. There may be other points but I just didn't think of them right now...