Q: BPD & Codependency *Poss. TW* [Intro]

Good evening / morning. I decided to register after reading around on the site for quite a while and had some questions regarding BPD in relation to codependency.

I’m 25/M and am going to be starting with professional therapy in the new year to help with some personal issues that I seem to no longer be able to cope with on my own. I’ve known that I’ve had issues for a long time that needed to be dealt with, but over the past few months the intensity of dealing with symptoms has increased and I’ve had extreme difficulty functioning at work.

I’ll explain personal details as needed to express my concerns / ask questions. In short, I've been struggling with some major, major issues regarding codependency. After doing some research, it would seem to me that I also fit a minimum of seven of the nine criteria for BPD as listed in the DSM-IV. The two primary areas in which I see myself differing from BPD are that I loathe and greatly fear conflict to the point where I will do nearly anything (not an exaggeration) to avoid said conflict, and that most of my negative emotions are taken out on myself and not on others.

Is it possible to be both codependent/avoidant and BPD? For example, in relationships, I feel the... ..."need to have approval of others" isn't quite the phrase I'm looking for, although it fits... ...basically, if someone asks me to do something, or for a favor, or what have you, something compels me to have to do it. When I can't, or if I fail, I feel shame – shame to the point where *tw* I will beat myself up (not just figuratively, but literally, with fists / objects) to feel relieved of the emotional pain */tw*. and anguish. A month ago, I called a friend. She stated that I had interrupted a phone call she was in. I thought that it was okay to call her, but I was filled with so much shame and embarrassment over such a trivial incident, that when I hung up the phone, *tw* I slapped myself across the face. Hard. */tw*

I’ve done similar things in the past for various reasons, from failing to meet expectations of others (reasonable or otherwise) to teaching myself not to open up to people emotionally because they would use the information to hurt me.

I’m not sure why I do these things exactly – I believe partly because the physical pain distracts me from the emotional pain, partly in a delusion that it will prevent me from receiving or lessen received negative consequences from others due to failing their expectations, partly because I feel it’s deserved, partly because some people’s expectations or treatment of me really piss me off and it wouldn’t be appropriate to take it out on them so I delude myself into thinking it’s my fault and then (mistakenly) feel it appropriate to take the action out on myself,

I’m fairly certain that this is codependent behaviour. Is it also BPD behaviour (in layman’s opinion, not seeking professional dx, that comes in the new year)? Is it both? Is it another PD? AvPD? Paranoia?

On a separate note, why isn’t codependency listed as a disorder in the DSM-IV, or is AvPD essentially codependency?

Back on topic, I am seeking professional help because that’s not normal behaviour, it affects all areas of my life, and I will not be able to hold a proper or healthy relationship while dealing with these problems. I was involved in a relationship with someone for 3 years who had DID and, now knowing what I know, seemingly BPD as well.

Often, I don’t even know if I am physically or psychologically capable of loving someone, because I don’t feel that I know how to receive love, affection, compliments, praise, etc., without it being attached to something that I am doing, not who I am. I’m not even sure who I am outside of the context of others. I hope the professional help will allow me to reach a point where I am capable of loving myself for who I am (and for me to feel that I can actually be desirable outside the context of what I do for someone).

I think that's all for now. Apologies for excessive length of first post. Any input welcomed; thanks in advance.

Hey,

I'd answer more elaborately but don't have the time. I just wanted to let you know that it is certainly possible to have both BPD and AvPD. I recognise myself in your post as well.

Many e-hugs!

Romicron wrote:Good evening / morning. I decided to register after reading around on the site for quite a while and had some questions regarding BPD in relation to codependency.

I’m 25/M and am going to be starting with professional therapy in the new year to help with some personal issues that I seem to no longer be able to cope with on my own. I’ve known that I’ve had issues for a long time that needed to be dealt with, but over the past few months the intensity of dealing with symptoms has increased and I’ve had extreme difficulty functioning at work.

I’ll explain personal details as needed to express my concerns / ask questions. In short, I've been struggling with some major, major issues regarding codependency. After doing some research, it would seem to me that I also fit a minimum of seven of the nine criteria for BPD as listed in the DSM-IV. The two primary areas in which I see myself differing from BPD are that I loathe and greatly fear conflict to the point where I will do nearly anything (not an exaggeration) to avoid said conflict, and that most of my negative emotions are taken out on myself and not on others.

Is it possible to be both codependent/avoidant and BPD? For example, in relationships, I feel the... ..."need to have approval of others" isn't quite the phrase I'm looking for, although it fits... ...basically, if someone asks me to do something, or for a favor, or what have you, something compels me to have to do it. When I can't, or if I fail, I feel shame – shame to the point where *tw* I will beat myself up (not just figuratively, but literally, with fists / objects) to feel relieved of the emotional pain */tw*. and anguish. A month ago, I called a friend. She stated that I had interrupted a phone call she was in. I thought that it was okay to call her, but I was filled with so much shame and embarrassment over such a trivial incident, that when I hung up the phone, *tw* I slapped myself across the face. Hard. */tw*

I’ve done similar things in the past for various reasons, from failing to meet expectations of others (reasonable or otherwise) to teaching myself not to open up to people emotionally because they would use the information to hurt me.

I’m not sure why I do these things exactly – I believe partly because the physical pain distracts me from the emotional pain, partly in a delusion that it will prevent me from receiving or lessen received negative consequences from others due to failing their expectations, partly because I feel it’s deserved, partly because some people’s expectations or treatment of me really piss me off and it wouldn’t be appropriate to take it out on them so I delude myself into thinking it’s my fault and then (mistakenly) feel it appropriate to take the action out on myself,

I’m fairly certain that this is codependent behaviour. Is it also BPD behaviour (in layman’s opinion, not seeking professional dx, that comes in the new year)? Is it both? Is it another PD? AvPD? Paranoia?

On a separate note, why isn’t codependency listed as a disorder in the DSM-IV, or is AvPD essentially codependency?

Back on topic, I am seeking professional help because that’s not normal behaviour, it affects all areas of my life, and I will not be able to hold a proper or healthy relationship while dealing with these problems. I was involved in a relationship with someone for 3 years who had DID and, now knowing what I know, seemingly BPD as well.

Often, I don’t even know if I am physically or psychologically capable of loving someone, because I don’t feel that I know how to receive love, affection, compliments, praise, etc., without it being attached to something that I am doing, not who I am. I’m not even sure who I am outside of the context of others. I hope the professional help will allow me to reach a point where I am capable of loving myself for who I am (and for me to feel that I can actually be desirable outside the context of what I do for someone).

I think that's all for now. Apologies for excessive length of first post. Any input welcomed; thanks in advance.

I find myself less interested in diagnosing you as opposed to figuring out why you're codependent in the first place.

I have a hunch that there was a domineering/abusive person in your family-either mother or father-and that you took on a certain role within your family system. There is a great book called "It'll never happen to me" by Claudia Black which describes the family roles in detail in a dysfunctional family. The book focuses specifically on families where one parent is an alcoholic however I feel that it could be applicable to any type of dysfunctional family really.

The main thing that would point to that is when you said that you're afraid of opening up emotionally in case someone hurts you. I'm guessing that has happened to you in the past, that someone did exploit you at a vulnerable time in your life. Also, the way that you fear conflict-I instantly wondered whether you had been exposed to a lot of conflict in your life at some stage so now try to avoid it. Also the other thing is the fact that you slapped yourself-I did that once before so I totally understand that the physical pain of it eased your emotional pain. I feel like you have anger and aggression within you but that you feel those emotions are unacceptable so you take them out on yourself.

You took on the "placator" role as a child. You learned that you would get the attention you needed if you people pleased, helped people with their problems, was nice to everyone etc. This role presumably worked for you in the family system however now you're an adult and your role has become defunct and you need a way to get out of that rigid role.

Placators always prioritise others' needs ahead of their own, therefore I would recommend that you work on your low self-esteem and assertiveness. Do an assertiveness course and there is a great book called "Overcoming Low Self-Esteem" by Melanie Fennell for the low self-esteem. It's a CBT book- CBT is great for dealing with low self-esteem as it combats the distorted thinking associated with it.

I have a funny feeling that your work issues are caused by your inability to assert yourself. I think you lean more towards the codependent side of things-that if you dealt with that side of things, that your symptoms would dramatically improve.

I think you need to forget about other people from the time being and start being more "selfish". Ask yourself what you yourself want from your life. Forget about other people's unrealistic expectations and start pleasing yourself. I feel like you have to start acting a different way before your beliefs/thoughts/feelings change. If you start being more assertive to people, they will back off and respect your boundaries.

For the identity issues, I think that you need to start goal setting. Set small goals to build up your confidence and then set bigger goals. Just do it in baby steps-Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

I feel like your issues are totally treatable-just get a good therapist. It's good that you're willing to seek treatment as a lot of men aren't and you're still only 25 so they're two positives here. You're also quite introspective so that will serve you well in therapy-you thought about why you slapped yourself. I feel like you're only resorting to slapping yourself because you currently don't have the skills to a) deal with your emotions in a more constructive way and b) assert yourself. You can fix these issues though-this is not a permanent thing whatsoever. I think that you would be an easy enough client for a therapist to work with as you don't seem to get aggressive with other people, just yourself. Not that getting aggressive with yourself is good but in terms of personality disorders, it's the more treatable option whereas if someone is constantly being aggressive with others it's harder to treat as the person doesn't feel they're doing anything wrong.

I think codependency is dependent personality disorder, not avoidant personality disorder..not totally sure on that but that's just my hunch. I had to google to find out what avoidant personality disorder was! It's basically someone not feeling comfortable in social situations, feeling shy, fearing rejection. CBT is good for this-basically exposure therapy.. in lay man's terms, facing your fear over and over again until it's no longer a fear. Fear is just a belief and beliefs can be changed. I read that somewhere but it's so true.

Also wonder whether you have depression and/or anxiety?

Thank you for your replies.

interestedinlearning wrote:I find myself less interested in diagnosing you as opposed to figuring out why you're codependent in the first place.

I have a hunch that there was a domineering/abusive person in your family-either mother or father-and that you took on a certain role within your family system. There is a great book called "It'll never happen to me" by Claudia Black which describes the family roles in detail in a dysfunctional family. The book focuses specifically on families where one parent is an alcoholic however I feel that it could be applicable to any type of dysfunctional family really.

The main thing that would point to that is when you said that you're afraid of opening up emotionally in case someone hurts you. I'm guessing that has happened to you in the past, that someone did exploit you at a vulnerable time in your life.

I have little to no memory of my childhood (<9). These things may or may not be true, couldn't tell you.

interestedinlearning wrote:Also, the way that you fear conflict-I instantly wondered whether you had been exposed to a lot of conflict in your life at some stage so now try to avoid it. Also the other thing is the fact that you slapped yourself-I did that once before so I totally understand that the physical pain of it eased your emotional pain. I feel like you have anger and aggression within you but that you feel those emotions are unacceptable so you take them out on yourself.

You took on the "placator" role as a child. You learned that you would get the attention you needed if you people pleased, helped people with their problems, was nice to everyone etc. This role presumably worked for you in the family system however now you're an adult and your role has become defunct and you need a way to get out of that rigid role.

Placators always prioritise others' needs ahead of their own, therefore I would recommend that you work on your low self-esteem and assertiveness. Do an assertiveness course and there is a great book called "Overcoming Low Self-Esteem" by Melanie Fennell for the low self-esteem. It's a CBT book- CBT is great for dealing with low self-esteem as it combats the distorted thinking associated with it.

I have a funny feeling that your work issues are caused by your inability to assert yourself. I think you lean more towards the codependent side of things-that if you dealt with that side of things, that your symptoms would dramatically improve.

May look into these assertiveness training methods.

interestedinlearning wrote:I think you need to forget about other people from the time being and start being more "selfish". Ask yourself what you yourself want from your life. Forget about other people's unrealistic expectations and start pleasing yourself. I feel like you have to start acting a different way before your beliefs/thoughts/feelings change. If you start being more assertive to people, they will back off and respect your boundaries.

For the identity issues, I think that you need to start goal setting. Set small goals to build up your confidence and then set bigger goals. Just do it in baby steps-Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

I feel like your issues are totally treatable-just get a good therapist. It's good that you're willing to seek treatment as a lot of men aren't and you're still only 25 so they're two positives here. You're also quite introspective so that will serve you well in therapy-you thought about why you slapped yourself. I feel like you're only resorting to slapping yourself because you currently don't have the skills to a) deal with your emotions in a more constructive way and b) assert yourself. You can fix these issues though-this is not a permanent thing whatsoever. I think that you would be an easy enough client for a therapist to work with as you don't seem to get aggressive with other people, just yourself. Not that getting aggressive with yourself is good but in terms of personality disorders, it's the more treatable option whereas if someone is constantly being aggressive with others it's harder to treat as the person doesn't feel they're doing anything wrong.

I think codependency is dependent personality disorder, not avoidant personality disorder..not totally sure on that but that's just my hunch. I had to google to find out what avoidant personality disorder was! It's basically someone not feeling comfortable in social situations, feeling shy, fearing rejection. CBT is good for this-basically exposure therapy.. in lay man's terms, facing your fear over and over again until it's no longer a fear. Fear is just a belief and beliefs can be changed. I read that somewhere but it's so true.

Also wonder whether you have depression and/or anxiety?

I find the difficulty in overcoming the stress of dealing with other people's expectations, especially when two different people or groups place expectations on me in which I can only fulfill one. I hate that.

I find it difficult to define or determine what I want unless I'm by myself. It often seems that who I am is swallowed up in whoever is around me at the time. Working on changing the belief system.

You are not a psychologist. You see psychologists and let them decide.
And yes, codependency is not exclusive, and no, that does not sound like codependent behavior in my opinion. Yes BPD+AvPD can be mixed.

*content edited by MOD*