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Can one be antisocial and avoidant?

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Can one be antisocial and avoidant?

Postby AGCDEFG » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:27 pm

My 30 year old is extremely socially phobic and always has been. He managed to marry, which I never thought would happen, and he has a job, but he is hampered in every way by his social phobia. The thing is, he also has antisocial traits. I'm going to copy and paste my post from the ASD site and ask you all if it sounds as if he has both disorders? I have no motive for asking other than, well, he is my son and I love him and want to understand him, even if it's very hard to get along with him. His siblings loathe him, but that's the ASD part not the Avoidant part. Ok, here goes and thanks in advance.



Just wondering what you think. Since this is a family member, but not a spouse, I am in contact with him a lot and want to at least have a slight idea of what I'm dealing with. Thanks for any feedback.

I can't pigeonhole this young man, but something is "off." I have known him all my life and am now hearing more and more stuff about him. But I'm not sure he's Narcissistic, although he has some traits. Can you give me a bit of help? I would like to understand him better, at least by realizing why he is the way he is.

Now he is a very fearful guy with a lot of phobias and I know that doesn't fit, but thought I'd throw it in. He is in therapy to try to control his anger. Beyond that...he has no friends. The few friends he's had through the years he's been mean to, but mostly he's been without many. He was afraid to go to school, is terrified to speak in front of anyone, and would not walk down the aisle to get married. They had to go to a Justice of the Peace. He cant' handle being in front of people. It is a big deal for him to,say, go on a job interview. He has no idea how to socialize appropriately and acts very haughty and know-it-all which turns even the family off big time. He lies a lot too. To get out a day of work, he said his father had died. Yes, he said he died. Why? Because his boss really doesn't excuse ANY absence unless it is a family tragedy and he needed to go see his psychiatrist. I find it eerie that he said his very-much-alive father had died. But he couldn't be straight so he lied.

He has always been very cruel to his sister and to his brother who we adopted, but the brother was stronger than him so he backed off. He abused him in other ways, such as tearing his homework and ripping his clothes. Brother loathed him, but could hold his own. Sis was another matter. She remembers him forcing her to watch porn movies while he babysat her (she is seven years younger than him). When mom was at work, he would catch her and tickle her until she cried. He would laugh when he did it. He cut the crotches of her stuffed animals and she found them in the bathroom and is assuming he masturbated in them (again not sure this pertains to Narcissism at all). He was rude and disrespectful to his parents and once slapped his mother across the face. He was always brilliant, but stopped trying in school after sixth grade. In fact he'd cut school and try to fake he was sick. He is cruel to animals if they get in his way. He hates animals. He is unwilling or unable to listen to anyone else's opinions without telling them why they are wrong and he is right. He spends more than he has so that he looks wealthy, although he is constantly hitting his father for money. He likes to pirate movies and buys clips for his game systems so he can get games downloaded for free. He is controlling to the max with women and one woman claimed he held her down on the bed when she didn't want him to. He claims that he did it because she made him so angry that he couldn't help it. He broke a door and scared his child who was on the other side. He knew he was on the other side and said again "I got so angry I couldn't help it." The door needed to be fixed and his child avoided him for several days. His wife was ready to leave.

Back to his sister: In spite of the abuse he heaped on his sister, who is grown now, he constantly asks me why she doesn't call him and why they aren't close. Once I mentioned abuse and he said, in a cold voice, "If you believe that about me, I will never speak to you again. Ever." I do believe it though. I babysat for him a lot saw how other kids used to get hurt in his presence and it was never his fault even though the kids would always said it was; that he did it on purpose. If somebody beat him at a game or a race, they would end up crying. Back to sis (sorry if I'm wandering): On two occasions he made her let him lick her on her privates. He was twelve at the time. She was about five. When he was finished he bit his lip and put up a fist in her face, then just walked away like it was no big deal. He either doesn't remember he did that or he doesn't think it's anything she should remember and hold against him. She remembers. She holds it against him. She hates him.

He has little interests in much other than himself, his own angst, videogames and sports. He gets scary when he's angry. In spite of that, when his wife almost left, he called me 24/7 even at 3am, without regard to my sleep or waking my family, and rattled on and on about the things she did to him and how much pain he was in etc. etc. etc. Finally I had to tell him that I couldn't listen to him anymore. I am a family member and felt it was inappropriate. He didn't speak to me for a while then started calling me again as if nothing had happened. He never brought up his marital woes again. I still think, underneath it all, he is angry at me. I am close to his sister. I feel sorry for his kid. He acts like he loves the boy. Can I trust it? Will he be good to him?

Ring a bell or sound like something else? He is a chronic underachiever, has a serious social phobia, and is on meds for severe anxiety and depression. So, as you can see, it doesn't all fit into any neat packages. Since N's tend to be very logical, I thought you could put it together better than me.

Thanks f
or any feedback. This person is close to me and I'm conce
AGCDEFG
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Re: Can one be antisocial and avoidant?

Postby ShadowTerra » Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:31 am

Yes, it's possible for someone to be both antisocial and avoidant. What makes you think he's avoidant, though? Just from what you've posted it seems to me like his problem is extreme social phobia rather than AvPD, but you would know best. The line between social phobia and AvPD is murky, but to me it comes down to why people are anxious in a situation. In addition to avoiding situations that make him anxious, does he also seem to have trouble trusting people and/or a deep sense of inferiority or inadequacy? If so, then AvPD is a possibility.

Sounds like he definitely has ASPD but I'm not sure he's avoidant.

Here's what Personality Disorders in Modern Life, 2nd Ed. suggests about how someone with an antisocial personality might experience anxiety disorders (p. 179-180):
For some personality patterns, such as the avoidant and the dependent, anxiety tends to build and build without limit. In contrast, antisocials are not disposed to ruminate or reflect on their feelings, much less express feelings verbally. Instead, they find anxiety to be an intolerable poison that must be acted out, usually in some impulsive and thoughtless way. In fact, the aggressive drive that often seems to define antisocial behavior can be seen as anxious energy redirected toward the manipulation, confrontation, or domination of others. Feelings of helplessness are thus discharged by making others feel helpless before the wrath of the antisocial. As such, chronic feelings of anxiety are rare. When they do occur, it is usually because the antisocial finds that some insuperable barrier cannot be knocked down, making discharge impossible. Antisocials may experience intense dread at the possibility of being controlled by others or by circumstances, dread retaliation by those they have damaged, or dread an inevitable prison sentence, for example. Increases in sustained acting-out behavior, therefore, are likely to signal some enduring life circumstance or external constraint not easily overcome through impulsive physical action.

... and mood disorders (p. 182):
Some antisocials exhibit a long history of depression. Vague feelings of helplessness and futility make such individuals even less likely to reflect on the consequences of their actions. Constructive courses of actions are irrelevant, because life cannot be changed, has already been wasted, or presents too many barriers to be overcome in the face of too few resources. Rejection by significant others or residual remorse for past actions may feed into an already irritable mood, exacerbating relationship conflicts and further lowering the threshold for hostile or aggressive action. The net effect is a link between depressive feelings and an increase in the acting-out behaviors that typify the antisocial pattern.
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Re: Can one be antisocial and avoidant?

Postby AGCDEFG » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:56 pm

Thank you.

He certainly doesn't trust many people and thinks people are looking at him and laughing at him.

He's in therapy and I wonder what his psychologist thinks he has. I doubt he's ever mentioned a personality disorder to him, but I'm positive he has one or two.
AGCDEFG
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