AvPD without social anxiety

Hi folks!

Just thought I'd ask people what they think of this.

I know the definitions provided here say AvPD and Social Anxiety/Phobia are different (though in other places it says AvPD is a 'more extreme form' of SA) but when people who have AvPD talk about it they all seem to have social anxiety.

Is there anyone around who doesn't?

It's not that I don't have any anxiety connected with social situations, but nothing near panic attacks. It tends to be on the level of discomfort more than outright fear.

Not that I'm positive I have AvPD. I can provide a bit more information, if anyone can be bothered to read it...

I don't really make friends. I'd say I have two or three 'friends' that I talk to maybe a couple of times a year, but I wouldn't say they're close.

I finally have acquired a partner (at the age of 25) which has lowered my anxiety levels a lot, as I no longer feel I need to try to pursue new relationships. I have pretty much stopped trying to socialise with other people since I've met him - basically, he fulfils my need for social contact. But I feel like I'm far too dependant on him, and I'm absolutely terrified he'll leave me - I don't think I'll ever find anyone else if he does. We've been together for over a year so I'm starting to feel a bit more secure in the relationship, but I wouldn't say I'm close to him either. I don't want to tell him about my problems, because I feel needy and clingy and pathetic.

So, basically, there are the couple of 'friends', my partner and my mother. They are the people I'm comfortable around, though I wouldn't say we're particularly close in the sense that I would talk to them if I had a problem. Sometimes with my partner I can, but it depends on the problem, and I don't like doing it.

I would like to be a bit more sociable, but basically every time I have tried to make friends in the past it's been a massive effort causing tons of anxiety, and the payoff is so small it really doesn't seem worth it anymore.

Even if I do qualify for a diagnosis, I don't know if I would like to have one. Most of the time I manage well enough.

I've actually seen several users on the sub-forum write that they experience little-to-no anxiety in public.

I don't think anyone really fully agrees on the where social phobia ends and where AvPD starts. Some say people with AvPD experience extreme social anxiety (panic attacks) on top of the AvPD itself, but this clearly isn't true for most. So I think it's too vague to say that AvPD is an extreme version of social anxiety -- true it is more severe than social anxiety, but I think this is more due to the inhibition, lifestyle restriction etc. rather than the actual anxiety itself.

Others think that you can have either of them or both of them at the same time (i.e. they're separate disorders). It says on Wikipedia that 20-40% of social phobics have AvPD (but not the other way around), however I couldn't find anywhere to back up this claim. Following this theory, in the book "distancing" by Martin Kantor, he says that social phobia is a fear of performing certain tasks, whilst AvPD is more to do with the fears that arise in interpersonal relationships. Social phobia is more things like eating out in public, being observed whilst working, public restrooms, public speaking etc. But still have healthy interpersonal relationships. I do think there's a bit of overlap into social situations with AvPD though, like not wanting to enter activities that may prove embarrassing.

Then there's the theory that AvPD is the same as, or a slightly worse version of generalized social phobia. But all in all I do thin you can have AvPD without social anxiety.

I have AVPD traits and I am not overly concerned what strangers think for the most part. I am a bit self conscious though, like I try not to fart in front of others and don't make much eye contact on sidewalks. If someone talks to me or smiles I will usually engage. But when I enter a room or with a crowd I am not worried that people are looking at me or judging me.

My problem comes from being embarrassed by my emotionality band being self conscious with people I have to engage regularly. If I don't like you or we are otherwise not close, I will absolutely not open up to you as I am afraid of being shamed or insulted. I will still be polite but that's it

My understanding is that social anxiety is more situation-based, being affected by a specific interaction or event, whereas in AvPD the trust and self esteem issues are a much bigger issue and affects everyday functioning a lot more.

I do have both, and admit I struggle to see which symptoms are which in myself. I guess the more important part is how I try to learn to deal with them rather than what belongs under what label though.

Avoidant Personality Disorder - Diagnostic Criteria, American Psychiatric Association:

An individual diagnosed with avoidant personality disorder needs to show at least 4 of the following criteria:

Avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact, because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection.

Is unwilling to get involved with people unless they are certain of being liked.

Shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed.

Is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations.

Is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy.

Views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others.

Is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing.

Can someone have 4 of those symptoms without having some social anxiety? Doesn't look like it to me. A schizoid would seem to have less or no social anxiety.

An individual diagnosed with Schizoid Personality Disorder needs to show at least 4 of the following criteria:

Neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family.

Almost always chooses solitary activities.

Has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person.

Takes pleasure in few, if any, activities.

Lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives.

Appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others.

Shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity.

Secret schizoids. I think they are more close to AvPD than to SzPD. Nevertheless probrably not on the scope of DSM.

Wikipedia Schizoid personality disorder wrote:Descriptions of the schizoid personality as "hidden" behind an outward appearance of emotional engagement have been recognized as far back as 1940 with Fairbairn's description of "schizoid exhibitionism," in which the schizoid individual is able to express a great deal of feeling and to make what appear to be impressive social contacts yet in reality gives nothing and loses nothing. Because he is only "playing a part," his own personality is not involved. According to Fairbairn, the person disowns the part which he is playing and thus the schizoid individual seeks to preserve his own personality intact and immune from compromise."

Dont you think avoidants may be outgoing as long as they have a role(playing a part)?

I have both.

Yet, I seem to avoid social interaction more when i'm not very "adrenergic".

I just feel more perceived dyscomfort when I"m "fine" and I become more avoidant, as if I don't want my peace disturbed.
When I'm on a highly "physically" anxious phase, I tend to enagage thngs more.


The difference between AVPD and GAD/SA is BEHAVIOR vs PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS.

AVPDs act based on anxious behaviors, but they don't necessarily feel the fight or flight response. One eventually leads to the other, but they aren't exclusive.

One can naturally avoid and overthink situations without cortisol and adrenaline pumping.

Just Borderline PD and Bipolar. Both have extremes of mood and emotion, however, bipolars are REALLY physically unable to do differently. Mania or depression happen when they happen, no stopping without medication or waiting for the body to cycle. Same with a panic attack. Whereas borderlines do it because it's part of their personality/behaviors/tastes/tendencies.

I know a girl irl with severe OCPD and AVPD. She goes out, and stuff, but the ammount og cognitive distortions and "rituals" to keep her reality structered and anxiety in check is amazing. She rarely has physical anxiety symptoms, although they are there.


But people differ a lot. Sometimes the same (apparently) disorder cna have different causes.

individual A: has low dopamine on part X of the brain. He is less likely to engage situations of a social nature, because he feels little desire too, when he does, he gets no pleasure and is likely to have difficulty keeping track of what's going on so he learns that social situations will likely be bad for him, bringing embarassment and weird moments.

individual B: has low serotonin on part X of the brain. He is often worrisome, anxious, frightful, easily stressed and is often second guessing himself because things are never really alright. He just can't relax and enjoy the moment. On social situations, he gets overloaded by so much input and his brain even subconsciously doesn't know what to respond and with what. A lot of things poke the bad things in his mind. So he prefers to keep it to himself before this overload of sensory and emotional input makes him TOO stressed.

invidual C: has too much norepinephrine but very little GABA and serotonin. He is a pile of agitated nerves. Sometimes it feels good, sometimes it feels bad. He is often engaged in many things, and is very intelligent, but in his super speed of processing and feeling, he still doesn't manage relaxation times and can often get overly excited. He skips so many things in social interaction, and has been doing it for so long he never developed good skills. In his agitation, social interaction is just something he wants to get it over with and often "blanks" externally, but inside, he's going 3912830129839218321 miles an hour trying to process whatever is going on and just flee that awful torture.

individual D: has some neurological abnormality that processes many subtleties of social interaction. He is often having to mask himself with guesses and personas, in public, but can't follow up every kind of social interaction. This might be very subconscious to an extent. As everything is often just "weird", he keeps to himself mostly.

Individual E: is on the bipolar spectrum. Often has anxiety, some OCD, remembers some events very intensely, has racing thoughts but is unaware since it's "mild". on his anxious periods, which is some form of hypomania, he stutters and says weird things impuslively to people. He also doesn't feel very well. So he'll be on and off about his social interactions and often will have an unstable style expressing himself, so that makes him fear social situations after many unpleasant episodes and not knowing what's wrong.

Some people are normal physiologicaly and develop a bad repertoir of emotions due to bad social interactions. Then they will also fear many situations.

And so on.


You avoid? You're avoidant. But is avoidant the same for all? No!

I would describe myself as having AvPD but not social anxiety. I'm an introvert, but I get by. It's only in situations where a potential relationship is at stake that the self-doubt and other flawed mental processes manifest themselves.

I've done public speaking, improv, and stand-up, but I'm terrified to ask a women to have drinks with me. That baffles the hell out of people who know me. But it makes sense, when you realize that AvPD and social anxiety aren't the same thing. They overlap, but aren't the same thing, nor is one a more severe version of the other. IMHO.

Lber wrote:I would describe myself as having AvPD but not social anxiety. I'm an introvert, but I get by. It's only in situations where a potential relationship is at stake that the self-doubt and other flawed mental processes manifest themselves.

I've done public speaking, improv, and stand-up, but I'm terrified to ask a women to have drinks with me. That baffles the hell out of people who know me. But it makes sense, when you realize that AvPD and social anxiety aren't the same thing. They overlap, but aren't the same thing, nor is one a more severe version of the other. IMHO.

That might be considered a more specific phobia rather than a PD. There's another SAD that isn't social anxiety disorder - sexual aversion disorder.

Arch Sex Behav. 2010 Apr;39(2):271-7. doi: 10.1007/s10508-009-9534-2.
The DSM diagnostic criteria for sexual aversion disorder.
Brotto LA1.
Author information
Abstract

Sexual Aversion Disorder (SAD) is one of two Sexual Desire Disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) and is defined as a "persistent or recurrent extreme aversion to, and avoidance of, all or almost all, genital sexual contact with a sexual partner" which causes distress or interpersonal difficulty. This paper reviews the short history of the diagnosis of SAD as well as the existing literature on its prevalence and etiology. Kaplan (1987) emphasized the phobic qualities of individuals with SAD who are highly avoidant of all forms of sexual contact. Much has also been written about the overlap between SAD and panic states, and the more obvious similarities between SAD and anxiety as opposed to sexual desire are described. There has been very little new published data on SAD since the publication of DSM-IV and the precise prevalence remains unknown. This paper critiques the placement of SAD as a Sexual Dysfunction and argues that it might more appropriately be placed within the Specific Phobia grouping as an Anxiety Disorder.

Good to know, but I don't think that applies to me. My AvPD also makes me avoid non-sexual friendships, and I'm not sex-averse.