I WANT IT GONE.

skyflyz wrote:Caged In, you asked how do you kill the disease? I don't know about that, but I know all about having something inside of you that is destroying everything that you touch. Of course a qualified therapist that helps you is the best course of actions.. but if I read your post correctly, you've already said that isn't an option.

BTW, you don't become a qualified therapist by reading up on it then practicing it on your friends. My understanding also is that therapists don't practice on themselves.

If therapy worked for me, I'd be considering it. But it doesn't, so I have to say, it's not an option, for me.

skyflyz wrote:It wasn't clear to me how your behavior specifically has caused you to lose things in life. What behaviors do you exhibit that have pushed people away? Would gaining confidence in some other field help? If you were more confident in general, would you find it easier to accomplish what you would like? Are there any "baby steps" you can take in an effort to reach something you have always wanted? If so, write them down, in order of difficulty, and try to accomplish them starting with the easiest. Rinse and repeat until they are no longer as difficult.

Awkwardness, concerned worries, centralizing others, behavioral abnormalities; conflicted emotions, self-imaging, facial gestures, etc. And of course, imagining that all of this is a problem, leading me to become reclusive, losing contact with friends who have told me I'm awesome, basically, which I 'take the wrong way,' no matter how well-liked I actually am. I also don't get angry at others in person. I suppress emotions that might make me look bad... Leading to paranoia, which leads to awkwardness and social ineptitude, which leads to my present insanity.

skyflyz wrote:I read an awful lot of negativity in your posts.. self-talk that is permanent and pervasive. I know you say you can't lie to yourself, but why is it that only negativity is the "truth"? Isn't it possible that some positive things can be the truth as well? Isn't It possible that your life isn't over, that you can be "repaired"? It seems very unlikely to me that at the age of 20, all hope is lost. If you really believed that, you would not be here now, posting in this forum asking for help (and categorically finding reasons why no suggestions will help.

Sure, there are 'positive' things about me. I'm sort of creative, have a knack for writing, and can have good things happen to me. Problem is, will I end up throwing them away for myself? I've said before, that I know what it's like to feel on top of the world. But, I know what it's like to realize that there is not even a "rock bottom," when you fall. The question then is how far must I fall before I may try to stand? Is it even worth it?

skyflyz wrote:Since you've done extensive research in the area of therapy, you must have run across "Learned Optimism" by Seligman. I understand that it can be difficult, very difficult to truly give this type of therapy a chance, but before you discount it or say you can't lie to yourself, can you give this or any other type of CBT a REAL try? If you are truly desperate as you indicate, a huge effort is in order. I'm going out on a limb here and I believe that if you changed your outlook to be more hopeful, less negative in general, you may have more success. I've read countless studies indicating that optimists have much better success and a much better life than pessimists. They even live longer. If I were you, I'd start there. Do it NOW instead of putting it off. If you don't take steps RIGHT NOW you can end up ruining your life. At 20, your life has hardly begun.

I consider the theory of "positive" anything to have a bias; "learned helplessness" however I can easily agree with. The matter is rooted in my present reality; if I can somehow change that, my life will become better. If I can mask negativity, while at the same time subduing intellect (acknowledgment of the fact that my life is $#%^), then I can be happy. I am not self-optimistic; yet I am optimistic for others. Sort of "House of the Rising Sun"-esque. Know what works; lived what hasn't.

skyflyz wrote:Of course, you can always find a reason why nothing can help, and continue on as you are. It's your choice.

Good luck, and I truly wish you the best.

Extermination of either my mind or this disorder will help. If I discard my passion for other people, then I will merely become schizoid... and quite vengeful, too. However, a martyr-like complex may be in order as a third option. "Help others for they know not what they do" lol.

venividivicky wrote:At 20, I was probably at the height of my social phobia. I've changed a lot since then. Working and dealing with other problems than before can change you quite a lot. Instead of early teens, it was 18-22 where I was most isolated. I had zero friends. Admittedly, I was still pretty happy. I am all I need.

How much more close friends do you need? I really think it's quite enough. Pals, acquaintances I can understand having many, but CLOSE friends? How many people can you open yourself to?

A girlfriend won't necessarily be someone who cares about you. She can also be a source of angst and problems. If you had bad luck with parents, good friend is your best chance.

I guess it's more an issue of needing someone I can be "comfortable" around, with, on, whatever it may be. A friend only can be so much; a lover can be more than that. A friend, a romance, and a light; a shining trio..

Caged In wrote:If therapy worked for me, I'd be considering it. But it doesn't, so I have to say, it's not an option, for me.

What kind of therapy have you tried?

Parador wrote:

Caged In wrote:If therapy worked for me, I'd be considering it. But it doesn't, so I have to say, it's not an option, for me.

What kind of therapy have you tried?

Speech therapy, Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy, prescribed medication, increased interaction with others, diagnostic tests, confidence-training, etcetera. Self-medication works one whole hell of a lot better than prescription drugs; tobaccos calms my nerves. Cancer, receding gum line? Bah. Self-isolation and delving into politics, art, and fantasy works. Yay avoidance...

But those aside, I've tried everything a State university has to offer. ADHD medication seems to calm me, until depressive comedowns set in. Positive reinforcement from friends helps. I always feel euphoric after being invited to hang out, then I worry about everything later on... Can't smoke weed, or else I'll completely freak out, diving into either anxiety about their perspective of me and hallucinating things people aren't actually saying, or I'll dive into the fantastic "meanings" behind a film and espouse political critique, which numbs everyone else.

I don't exercise, which I plan to change. That might boost my self-esteem. Of course, I can't work out at the gym; too worried that I won't look attractive, too concerned about the opposite sex, blah blah blah. But, inspiring confidence and self-worth seem to be the only option, and that can only be accomplished through peer interaction, which I fear destroying.

I need to just "let go," and "go with it." I can, but rejection can happen, and it hurts, sending me back into an isolated stasis. To destroy my world; just say "no." Basically, that is how it is for me.

Caged In wrote:I don't exercise, which I plan to change. That might boost my self-esteem. Of course, I can't work out at the gym; too worried that I won't look attractive, too concerned about the opposite sex, blah blah blah. But, inspiring confidence and self-worth seem to be the only option, and that can only be accomplished through peer interaction, which I fear destroying.

I need to just "let go," and "go with it." I can, but rejection can happen, and it hurts, sending me back into an isolated stasis. To destroy my world; just say "no." Basically, that is how it is for me.

Exercise is important. get into a good cross training routine - weights running and biking.

Have you tried having sex with prostitutes? That always make me feel better. You don't need frineds if you know a good hooker. lol. And a dog. Or cat. I'm more of a cat person.

Parador wrote:Have you tried having sex with prostitutes? That always make me feel better. You don't need frineds if you know a good hooker. lol. And a dog. Or cat. I'm more of a cat person.

Boy, do I want to... But, my overly religious sentiments bar me from that option. I can't 'pay' a woman for sex. I've got to overcome my fear, become more physically attractive, and find someone who isn't that. But my God do I desire sexual intimacy... It's the one thing that lets me know I'm not Schizoid, lol.

Caged In wrote:Boy, do I want to... But, my overly religious sentiments bar me from that option. I can't 'pay' a woman for sex. I've got to overcome my fear, become more physically attractive, and find someone who isn't that. But my God do I desire sexual intimacy... It's the one thing that lets me know I'm not Schizoid, lol.

OK then - that seems to be the root of the problem. You think the religious bigwigs who made those rules didn't bang hookers? Or worse - molest kids. Come on - don't be gullible. You're just torturing YOURSELF.

Parador wrote:

Caged In wrote:Boy, do I want to... But, my overly religious sentiments bar me from that option. I can't 'pay' a woman for sex. I've got to overcome my fear, become more physically attractive, and find someone who isn't that. But my God do I desire sexual intimacy... It's the one thing that lets me know I'm not Schizoid, lol.

OK then - that seems to be the root of the problem. You think the religious bigwigs who made those rules didn't bang hookers? Or worse - molest kids. Come on - don't be gullible. You're just torturing YOURSELF.

Nancy McWilliams would say that avoidant schizoid split is made without basis. But I always find excuses to avoid other people. Like are your religious sentiments strong? Or do you think you are finding yourself an excuse?

You could take a look at this "internal saboteur theory". It all make sense to me.
http://www.integrativetherapy.com/en/articles.php?id=44

Anyway I am diagnosed with neither. But I do relate with a lot you ve said, it is just that I never got to the point of "avoiding going to gym because people will look at me". But I do think I am ugly, I just learned that some woman dont care too much about it.

Also I know I can be charming, and that makes me a ugly Narcissus, I pull girls towards me and when they try to get close I push(retreat). Now there is an advantage of hookers, they wont call you next day.

But if hookers are good or was not my point. My point is try to see if you dont have this "saboteur" inside you. My point with hookers, is that my hands can give me more pleasure than a pussy or a blowjob. But I still wish I could have sex with intimacy, it is just that this "saboteur" puts me in this pull and push game.

Caged In wrote:I need to just "let go," and "go with it." I can, but rejection can happen, and it hurts, sending me back into an isolated stasis. To destroy my world; just say "no." Basically, that is how it is for me.

I've managed to reframe my rejections into positive things. A person can actually become motivated by rejection. Usually if I'm rejected, I've gone out on a limb and made an effort. I focus on the effort, not the rejection, and that cheers me. The other thing I do (and this is my own invention, not from anybody accredited that I know of) is try to dredge up a feeling of complete boredom whenever rumination starts about things that have bothered me in the past. This seems to dilute the pain some. Over time, some of the things I ruminate about have become associated with a truly dull and boring feeling, the kind of feeling that sets in when somebody is droning on and on about an excruciatingly dull topic. They become less painful. It does take effort to do this, and some of the things that are most recent or most painful are somewhat resistant.

The other thing that I firmly believe is that if ruminations are a problem, fighting them does no good and is counterproductive. The effort in fighting them gives them more power. If a rumination starts, don't try and stop it. Try and associate it with that boring feeling I was mentioning. They ARE usually boring anyhow, because they are in the past.

PS I like your sig. Gandhi was really onto something there.

Have you read that the symptoms of personality disorders lessen over time, especially once you reach 40? I know that is probably not helpful right now, but it's something to consider that you are in the peak period of the absolute worst time of your life dealing with this. The only way I got through my teens and early 20's was by having a tremendous, driving goal of going to college (and doing well, or at least as well as I could, considering). And then getting my "dream job" was my next long-lasting motivator. Throughout all of it I was completely obsessed with finding my "soul mate". Maybe it's easy for me to say now that I am married but I wasted SO MUCH TIME and energy obsessing over potential soul mates. I only found my husband when I was finally fairly happy with myself and my life as it was, and was about to give up the obsessive search.

Of course, marriage brings with it it's own tremendous problems which I'm dealing with now.

Also, I wonder if ECT would help? If you're looking for a physical, non-medication possibility?

Parador wrote:OK then - that seems to be the root of the problem. You think the religious bigwigs who made those rules didn't bang hookers? Or worse - molest kids. Come on - don't be gullible. You're just torturing YOURSELF.

I don't follow the big-wigs though, that's the thing. I consider myself "religious," without any symptoms of being "religious," really. I'll do drugs, enjoy my time, and bang a chick if I could, but there are limits... Paying for a hooker? That isn't righteous; so that isn't me. If it's for you, I don't judge you at all for it. In fact, it's not only a good thing, in my eyes, but I wish I could do it.

In my dreams, I date the hooker after...

I just couldn't do it. I hold myself to an opposing standard... I'd "like" to pay for sex, but I'm "driven" not to. Something inside me conducts that. Now, I "study" the bible for philosophical purposes, not to be "closer to Jesus" like all of the rabid fundies out there. I try to embody the good in it, while weighing the bad; good and evil, moral and immoral. Some things, I just don't have the "motivation" to do... just... I can't bring myself to do it, otherwise I would. Want to in my mind? Yes. I'll daydream about it. But when it comes down to it, I'll step away. Sort of like AvPD...

The thing is, until college, I'd never seen porn once in my life. Had the opportunity, but rejected it. That sort of disgusted me. Then, friends showed me it. I didn't like it; in fact I laughed at how ridiculous it was. I don't "get it." I just don't appreciate it. Maybe this will help give you or others more insight into me, but...

When it comes to titties on a screen, that doesn't "excite me" very much. Maybe I can get turned on sometimes, sure, but what I do like is actually thinking about myself feeling those titties; the intimacy of it all, being there. The feelings. The temptation. Looking at a clitoris doesn't turn me on. It's kinda strange looking to be honest. Worse if George W. Bush's head is down there... But the intimate glare into her eyes as I go down on her, that's the idea I like. The spiritual connection, the love...

I know I wouldn't get that with a hooker. Masturbation... which I do... is like raping myself. I hate myself afterward. Pleasurable, yes, but only physically. It makes me ill, inside. Is it schizoid? I don't know...

stirner wrote:Nancy McWilliams would say that avoidant schizoid split is made without basis. But I always find excuses to avoid other people. Like are your religious sentiments strong? Or do you think you are finding yourself an excuse?

I do lack bias, often considering many factors into it.. But, I always have a heart for others. Schizoid, it doesn't factor in strongly with me. Now, religious sentiments: Strong? I believe Christ was real; Son of God probable, embodiment of God, I reject that. I don't believe in the "Holy Trinity" as it is described, per-say. I'm more Jewish/Saved Jew than I am Christian, which has led me to consider Judaism as my religion, along with adhering to some Christianic principles and teachings. Jesus = Important prophet from God, but Christianity = politically weaponized religion for the masses.

stirner wrote:You could take a look at this "internal saboteur theory". It all make sense to me.
http://www.integrativetherapy.com/en/articles.php?id=44

Will definitely do, and in depth after I've finished my college final today, thanks for the link.
From what I've had time to read thus-far:
(1) an attitude of omnipotence
Defined; omnipotence is often listed as one of a deity's characteristics among many, including omniscience (Know-all), omnipresence (Is-all), and omnibenevolence (Good-Always). The presence of all these properties in a single entity has given rise to considerable theological debate, the problem of theodicy prominently included.
It sort of matches, but, in some ways. I know there is much I do not know; math, science, etc. But what I am driven to learn, I learn I all I can about. I know a lot, enough to give me an advantage, and I don't like to feel "less intelligent" than others... I also gear myself toward a more "benevolent" lifestyle, sort of when it comes to hookers... But, then I reflect on the drugs. Meh. If I can't even kill myself, I doubt that drugs can do the job either.

(2) an attitude of detachment
I do feel detached from my present reality, but that's sort of thanks to my depression. I've forced myself away from it because I don't quite understand it. So, I'll go to my inner world for answers, leading to 3.

(3) a preoccupation with ... inner reality.
Not fantasy, really, except in the most "realistic" of terms. Apocalypse now, human morality, and their extent... I try to understand the world through myself. Maybe that's my INFP personality trait sinking through, I don't know...

Added note, on the INFP personality:
•Idiosyncratic dreamers with strong imaginations
•Strongly linked to the Avoidant personality
•Somewhat linked to the Dependent, Histrionic and Negativistic personalities
•Repress their Extroverted Thinking function, meaning they sometimes preserve their own opinion in the face of facts and evidence to the contrary
( http://www.celebritytypes.com/infp.php )

stirner wrote:Anyway I am diagnosed with neither. But I do relate with a lot you ve said, it is just that I never got to the point of "avoiding going to gym because people will look at me". But I do think I am ugly, I just learned that some woman dont care too much about it.

Also I know I can be charming, and that makes me a ugly Narcissus, I pull girls towards me and when they try to get close I push(retreat). Now there is an advantage of hookers, they wont call you next day.

I'm the same way. I look good, actually, and I can be charming. But when it comes to self-image, I'm one ugly mother f'er. I look fine. I can pull a girl well enough at first... Yet, it always comes down to the same thing driving them away, and the same question I'll ask myself in the mirror in my fits of verbalized self-degradation. "I'm not right, am I?" Yup; I've gotten to the point where I'll chew myself out, aloud. It's incredibly embarrassing if someone walks in on me, and when I think about what my dorm neighbors might think of me, it's sort of stunning... But it's sort of fun to insult myself, I guess. "I deserve it," I'd say.

stirner wrote:But if hookers are good or was not my point. My point is try to see if you dont have this "saboteur" inside you. My point with hookers, is that my hands can give me more pleasure than a pussy or a blowjob. But I still wish I could have sex with intimacy, it is just that this "saboteur" puts me in this pull and push game.

Well, from the Freudian inventory test:
Oral (dependence) |||||||||||||||||| 73%
Latency (learning) |||||||||||||||||| 73%
Genital (productivity) |||||||||| 36%

Oral: you appear to be overly passive and dependent, wanting things to be given to you instead of working for them.

Latency: you appear to be afraid or averse to present or future real world responsibilities, this will only make your inevitable transition more difficult, so learn to deal with the real world.

Genital: you appear to have a conventional, close-minded, and regressive outlook on life. Change is an inevitable and positive part of life, learn to contribute to it, not fear it or oppose it.

I have sabotaged myself more times than I can count. I do believe that I do have this inside of me. I want sex with intimacy, I want to feel what it's like to make someone feel like they've never felt before. But, I avoid that intimacy I want, and I'll blow up my own yacht if it comes down to it.

psspoor wrote:Have you read that the symptoms of personality disorders lessen over time, especially once you reach 40? I know that is probably not helpful right now, but it's something to consider that you are in the peak period of the absolute worst time of your life dealing with this. The only way I got through my teens and early 20's was by having a tremendous, driving goal of going to college (and doing well, or at least as well as I could, considering). And then getting my "dream job" was my next long-lasting motivator. Throughout all of it I was completely obsessed with finding my "soul mate". Maybe it's easy for me to say now that I am married but I wasted SO MUCH TIME and energy obsessing over potential soul mates. I only found my husband when I was finally fairly happy with myself and my life as it was, and was about to give up the obsessive search.

Of course, marriage brings with it it's own tremendous problems which I'm dealing with now.

Also, I wonder if ECT would help? If you're looking for a physical, non-medication possibility?

I've sort of gotten over the soul-mate thing, I think I'll find her one day is what I tell myself now, more often than not, but I'd be glad to get her in my life now so I have someone stable to be close to. I'm aware of the problems marriage comes with, I've seen my mom and dad quarrel before, but, they aren't divorced. I take after my dad's soft side, so "the woman is always right," no matter how crazy she may be. I'm not scared of those problems, I've always been diplomatic, passive, and described as "sweet," despite the occasional pissed-off feelings I get after getting irritated beyond belief. I'd just have my own private study in the house where I can let loose my mess every once in a while, away from everybody.

Now, I wouldn't consider ECT. I don't want to be there, and I don't want to be registered as someone going through it, since you know, gun control and all of that, for me, someone who hunts and target-shoots often... In fact, politically, that's my only driving factor for choosing "right" over "left," coming from a European-mutt liberty-seeking family and all. A better physical solution would be exercise. I'm just too damned lazy, "never able to find the time to do it" while typing on the computer lol. At least I get to bolster my writing skills.