I believe all psychologists should learn about

anti-psychology. They should not be qualified without learning about the other side of the coin.

when I studied psychology at university (I did it for two years before deciding it was a bit of a quack) one of the things a lecturer said in first year was that the first rule of psychology was "that there has never been a disturbed patient that up until the point they were brought in was not surrounded by disturbing people." This seemed profoundly true to me. Another great influence for me was when studying philosophy I had the pleasure of studying R.D Laing.

When you read the "doctor's" reports on "mentally ill" patients from 100 years ago the most disturbing thing is not in fact the patient's behaviour but the behaviour of the so called "doctor" taking the notes on the patient... we may have come a long way since then but from what I recall the behaviour of the "doctor" in those 'dark old days' was nothing short of horrifically abusive and the behaviour of the patient that was being noted by this doctor as mentally ill seemed to be nothing more than a reaction to actual abuse. Something sticks out of my head so to speak in my memory of the "doctor" driving a nail into the forehead of a young female "patient" and then noting her behaviour as being somehow crazy.. all the while ignoring the fact that this bastard had actually driven a nail into her head while she was sleeping to see if she'd notice.... I also recall notes on how this young female "patient" was trying to escape and the "doctor" restraining her.... it's just scary that these positions of power over someone are given to someone who has simply done higher education... I mean a lot has changed in psychology and psychiatry since those times but this power balance is still a bit off.

I've had a loved one be "netted" and taken to a mental hospital before for behaving strangely in class @ Tafe... he was indeed a strange man and something had happened to him that had made him extra "weird" but he was bouncing off the walls when he went into that hospital and they drugged him to the point where he was literally drooling.... now on visiting him I was taken into a room by a doctor and a couple of nurses and told that he had severe permanent brain damage and that I should leave him and move on with my life as I was young.... now I actually knew him a lot better than them and while he was not with me when he was actually netted I knew him well enough to know that this so called "severe permanent brain damage" was actually an effect of the copious amounts of drugs they had put him on to sedate him. I told the doctor and nurses, "You are wrong, it's the drugs you have him on... listen someone with 'severe permanent brain damage' does not come into the hospital bouncing off the walls and then only start drooling after being 'medicated'." I was told that I was not doctor and that he would be kept for a further 3 months anyway. I remember one time going to visit him and he was so happy to see me he ran up to me and started dancing in front of me lol, a male nurse walked up to us and scolded him, saying "If you're going to behave like that you will be locked up in isolation!" and to watch my loved one sink back into himself and bow his head for doing nothing wrong except acting happy was heartbreaking.

After he was finally released I took him into my care and he was required to go every week for an injection of some kind on top of the medication they had him on. I spoke to the doctor... see he had gone from before going into hospital from being weird to literally not being able to dress, wash or feed himself. I said to the doctor, "I want you to start lowering his medication." A debate with the doctor ensued in which I assured the doctor that I knew him a lot better than he did and that he was in my care and I really thought he needed a lot less medication. I assured the doctor that if anything went wrong I would bring him straight back to see him but I insisted that he start lowering the dose of his medication.... the doctor finally agreed to try this after a fair amount of debate but I was NOT going to back down.... he halved his dose and all that started happening to my loved one was was a vast improvement... every week we went back to the doctor and every week I insisted that the doctor continued to lower his medication.... I had no problems at home with this and it wasn't until months later when finally he was off all his that he started to dramatically improve. He went from being a near vegetable to being a functional person who could dress himself, feed himself and be himself.

This is just a personal account. I am no longer with him but he is now a functional person who has a child (with another woman) and holds down a job. I believe if I had not insisted on the doctors reducing his medication those many years ago he would have never returned to normal (or what was normal for him anyway) and possibly still be needed to fed clothed and washed... he is now, well he is himself.... not bad for someone who was written off as having severe permanent brain damage I say.

Doctors do not always know what is best... they are literally just as human as the next person and literally just as human as every patient they treat.

How others have treated mental patients really should be looked at just as closely as the behaviour of the patient themselves lest the doctors compound a behavioural problem that actually stems from other's behaviour towards the patient rather than the patient's behaviour.

All experiences we ALL have are in the realm of human experience and we should not be so quick to write off what doesn't seem to fit into our own experiences as simply being "mentally ill".

Hey oOBatteryOo,

I don't think there really is such a thing as anti-psychology. Psychology is the scientific study of behaviour and mental processes and there are many different paradigms to view psychology from. Gestalt, Humanism and Existentialism are all alternative paradigms that have some popularity in some areas of psychology. However, they are still paradigms in psychology not anti-psychology.

o0Battery0o wrote:When you read the "doctor's" reports on "mentally ill" patients from 100 years ago the most disturbing thing is not in fact the patient's behaviour but the behaviour of the so called "doctor" taking the notes on the patient... we may have come a long way since then but from what I recall the behaviour of the "doctor" in those 'dark old days' was nothing short of horrifically abusive and the behaviour of the patient that was being noted by this doctor as mentally ill seemed to be nothing more than a reaction to actual abuse. Something sticks out of my head so to speak in my memory of the "doctor" driving a nail into the forehead of a young female "patient" and then noting her behaviour as being somehow crazy.. all the while ignoring the fact that this bastard had actually driven a nail into her head while she was sleeping to see if she'd notice.... I also recall notes on how this young female "patient" was trying to escape and the "doctor" restraining her.... it's just scary that these positions of power over someone are given to someone who has simply done higher education... I mean a lot has changed in psychology and psychiatry since those times but this power balance is still a bit off.

I remember this too. I believe it was in "The Politics of Experience" by Laing. He was quoting Emil Kraepelin who was for some reason poking his patient with a pin to test the persons reflexes. It was a good book.

o0Battery0o wrote:
I've had a loved one be "netted" and taken to a mental hospital before for behaving strangely in class @ Tafe... he was indeed a strange man and something had happened to him that had made him extra "weird" but he was bouncing off the walls when he went into that hospital and they drugged him to the point where he was literally drooling.... now on visiting him I was taken into a room by a doctor and a couple of nurses and told that he had severe permanent brain damage and that I should leave him and move on with my life as I was young.... now I actually knew him a lot better than them and while he was not with me when he was actually netted I knew him well enough to know that this so called "severe permanent brain damage" was actually an effect of the copious amounts of drugs they had put him on to sedate him. I told the doctor and nurses, "You are wrong, it's the drugs you have him on... listen someone with 'severe permanent brain damage' does not come into the hospital bouncing off the walls and then only start drooling after being 'medicated'." I was told that I was not doctor and that he would be kept for a further 3 months anyway. I remember one time going to visit him and he was so happy to see me he ran up to me and started dancing in front of me lol, a male nurse walked up to us and scolded him, saying "If you're going to behave like that you will be locked up in isolation!" and to watch my loved one sink back into himself and bow his head for doing nothing wrong except acting happy was heartbreaking.

After he was finally released I took him into my care and he was required to go every week for an injection of some kind on top of the medication they had him on. I spoke to the doctor... see he had gone from before going into hospital from being weird to literally not being able to dress, wash or feed himself. I said to the doctor, "I want you to start lowering his medication." A debate with the doctor ensued in which I assured the doctor that I knew him a lot better than he did and that he was in my care and I really thought he needed a lot less medication. I assured the doctor that if anything went wrong I would bring him straight back to see him but I insisted that he start lowering the dose of his medication.... the doctor finally agreed to try this after a fair amount of debate but I was NOT going to back down.... he halved his dose and all that started happening to my loved one was was a vast improvement... every week we went back to the doctor and every week I insisted that the doctor continued to lower his medication.... I had no problems at home with this and it wasn't until months later when finally he was off all his that he started to dramatically improve. He went from being a near vegetable to being a functional person who could dress himself, feed himself and be himself.

Mental hospitals are incredibly impersonal and dehumanizing. It's really quite sad. Unfortunately, it has largely to do with the social dynamics of the institution and not so much with the individuals. I know Phillip Zombardini has written quite a bit about this for a while. However, education in mental health which teaches "this is what mental disorder X is and this is what the mentally disorder person does and here is what you do to the mentally disordered person" is also to blame for grossly oversimplifying human behaviour and mental processes.

Take care.

Infinite_Jester wrote:Hey oOBatteryOo,

I don't think there really is such a thing as anti-psychology. Psychology is the scientific study of behaviour and mental processes and there are many different paradigms to view psychology from. Gestalt, Humanism and Existentialism are all alternative paradigms that have some popularity in some areas of psychology. However, they are still paradigms in psychology not anti-psychology.

o0Battery0o wrote:When you read the "doctor's" reports on "mentally ill" patients from 100 years ago the most disturbing thing is not in fact the patient's behaviour but the behaviour of the so called "doctor" taking the notes on the patient... we may have come a long way since then but from what I recall the behaviour of the "doctor" in those 'dark old days' was nothing short of horrifically abusive and the behaviour of the patient that was being noted by this doctor as mentally ill seemed to be nothing more than a reaction to actual abuse. Something sticks out of my head so to speak in my memory of the "doctor" driving a nail into the forehead of a young female "patient" and then noting her behaviour as being somehow crazy.. all the while ignoring the fact that this bastard had actually driven a nail into her head while she was sleeping to see if she'd notice.... I also recall notes on how this young female "patient" was trying to escape and the "doctor" restraining her.... it's just scary that these positions of power over someone are given to someone who has simply done higher education... I mean a lot has changed in psychology and psychiatry since those times but this power balance is still a bit off.

I remember this too. I believe it was in "The Politics of Experience" by Laing. He was quoting Emil Kraepelin who was for some reason poking his patient with a pin to test the persons reflexes. It was a good book.

o0Battery0o wrote:
I've had a loved one be "netted" and taken to a mental hospital before for behaving strangely in class @ Tafe... he was indeed a strange man and something had happened to him that had made him extra "weird" but he was bouncing off the walls when he went into that hospital and they drugged him to the point where he was literally drooling.... now on visiting him I was taken into a room by a doctor and a couple of nurses and told that he had severe permanent brain damage and that I should leave him and move on with my life as I was young.... now I actually knew him a lot better than them and while he was not with me when he was actually netted I knew him well enough to know that this so called "severe permanent brain damage" was actually an effect of the copious amounts of drugs they had put him on to sedate him. I told the doctor and nurses, "You are wrong, it's the drugs you have him on... listen someone with 'severe permanent brain damage' does not come into the hospital bouncing off the walls and then only start drooling after being 'medicated'." I was told that I was not doctor and that he would be kept for a further 3 months anyway. I remember one time going to visit him and he was so happy to see me he ran up to me and started dancing in front of me lol, a male nurse walked up to us and scolded him, saying "If you're going to behave like that you will be locked up in isolation!" and to watch my loved one sink back into himself and bow his head for doing nothing wrong except acting happy was heartbreaking.

After he was finally released I took him into my care and he was required to go every week for an injection of some kind on top of the medication they had him on. I spoke to the doctor... see he had gone from before going into hospital from being weird to literally not being able to dress, wash or feed himself. I said to the doctor, "I want you to start lowering his medication." A debate with the doctor ensued in which I assured the doctor that I knew him a lot better than he did and that he was in my care and I really thought he needed a lot less medication. I assured the doctor that if anything went wrong I would bring him straight back to see him but I insisted that he start lowering the dose of his medication.... the doctor finally agreed to try this after a fair amount of debate but I was NOT going to back down.... he halved his dose and all that started happening to my loved one was was a vast improvement... every week we went back to the doctor and every week I insisted that the doctor continued to lower his medication.... I had no problems at home with this and it wasn't until months later when finally he was off all his that he started to dramatically improve. He went from being a near vegetable to being a functional person who could dress himself, feed himself and be himself.

Mental hospitals are incredibly impersonal and dehumanizing. It's really quite sad. Unfortunately, it has largely to do with the social dynamics of the institution and not so much with the individuals. I know Phillip Zombardini has written quite a bit about this for a while. However, education in mental health which teaches "this is what mental disorder X is and this is what the mentally disorder person does and here is what you do to the mentally disordered person" is also to blame for grossly oversimplifying human behaviour and mental processes.

Take care.

Yeah I was writing it from memory and realised after I wrote it that it was actually a needle or something not a nail... so slight exaggeration on my part agreed.... and couldn't be bothered editing it after I realised. And yeah 'twas a fantastic book... I was pretty sure someone knowledgeable if they read it would pull me up on that lol.

I agree that anti-psychology is a part of psychology which is why I think it should be included in studying psychology... I mean really probably the best psychologists I've been to have also studied philosophy... but I have asked a number of my shrinks (had quite a few) and not many seemed even familiar with the term "anti-psychology" which I was pretty disappointed in.... yet there are so many branches and expertise in the broad area of psychology so some specialise in different areas.... and when I think that a psychiatrist also needs to study medicine the list of what every shrink should study gets longer and longer and well you know, if we all knew everything we'd have to study for infinity and never get any actual experience and of course experience actually counts for something too and at some point they need to put down the books and actually work among the people who need help to live in this society. The ethics in psychology have changed so much even in the last half decade and I remember some saying at uni that you can't get to do any of the "fun stuff" in psychology any more..... the "fun stuff" being conducting experiments on people that really today are seen as nothing more than abuse of a person.

Anyway I was happy to see your response and have you pull me up on my exaggeration lol. Glad you've read R.D Laing and have a better memory of the contents than I do. And I was also pretty happy to see a section in this forum all about anti-psychology and then even more happy to find someone obviously knowledgeable about it.

Thankyou

This place seems great the mods here seem to have actual real jobs, it seems accepting and I've been feeling really lost lately so am just happy to have an accepting place to interact with people and bounce around ideas... I am generally not taken that well in forums by the drop-kicks who run them but so far so good for me here.

Thanks all.

Hey oOBatterOo,

o0Battery0o wrote:This place seems great the mods here seem to have actual real jobs, it seems accepting and I've been feeling really lost lately so am just happy to have an accepting place to interact with people and bounce around ideas... I am generally not taken that well in forums by the drop-kicks who run them but so far so good for me here.

The antipsych forum is pretty poorly moderated. It's one of the reasons I post here.

And yes psychology is a very rich discipline.

Take care.

The only thing they need is oversight. You can't expect people to act right without oversight.

The good thing is that it is happening as we speak. I saw an article yesterday about some law-enforcement agency that will be looking at over-medication in the US. That's a start a quite a breakthrough. Doctors are not all-powerful anymore when it comes to meds.

As far as mental institutions, that is still to be done, but you can bet that the baby boomers that are now entering them and foster care homes will be whining about every other little thing, so it is likely to happen very soon there as well.

There used to be a culture of abuse where authority was all-powerful. It is only in the last decade or two that this started to change. There is still a lot of resistance on the part of the last abusers, but they are retiring. It is just a matter of time until there is some real accountability in the health care field.

Thanks for sharing your story, it was nice to read.

I belive if all of us who belive in the cause spread links, or make web pages and youtube videos about anti-psych (better known as the truth) it will become common knowledge rather quickly.

look at this page on informed consent to treatment:

http://laingsociety.org/colloquia/polof ... onsent.htm

Here is a quote from it:

" I understand that the drug is likely to provoke various unpleasant effects when I stop taking it, especially if I stop too suddenly. I understand that although withdrawal reactions are systematically ignored in psychiatric drug treatment or research, they might represent the worst part of my whole drug-taking episode. I further understand that these reactions will often closely resemble the original symptoms for which the drug was prescribed to me, and are likely to be taken for a return of these symptoms (a "relapse"), rather than for withdrawal effects. I realize that my doctor or the researcher is likely to interpret these reactions as a sign that my "illness" is chronic and that my drug is "effective." "

I wish I had been told this before I got those nice free zyprexa samples for my "insomnia".

Copy_Cat wrote:I belive if all of us who belive in the cause spread links, or make web pages and youtube videos about anti-psych (better known as the truth)

Again, I don't believe that anti-psych exists. Criticisms of psychiatry's system of classification, the normative practices for the ascription of mental health diagnoses, ethical arguments against forced treatment, civil commitment and community treatment orders, protests to the use of psychiatric medications on children and the elderly (typically for dementia), conceptual criticisms of the use of the term "mental illness" or "mental disease", the proliferation of psychiatric medications in Western society, and broader complaints about the field's impersonal and dehumanizing treatment and understanding of people are all themselves part of psychiatry and psychology's rich subject matter which includes criticism.

People who say they are against psychiatry don't understand that the term has no clear meaning. It seems like people are forgetting Thomas Szasz, Ronald Laing, and Franco Basaglia were/are psychiatrists who practice psychiatry. Also, phenomenology, gestalt and humanism are alternative paradigm's that still exist in psychology. There is no reason to describe them as "anti-" anything.

Infinite_Jester wrote:People who say they are against psychiatry don't understand that the term has no clear meaning. .

The psych is the soul, psychiatry sais your a balanced chemical soup and nothing else. like an insect.

If that was true could we add anti-lier, anti-cheat and anti-thief medications ?

A pill to make men who cheat on there wives feel guilt ?

Medicating right or wrong is impossible, and those are "feelings" ??

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I wanted to say on this post I believe all psychologists should learn about the EFFECTS of there drugs by TAKING them a few times !!!

What does haldol feel like ? well its an anti psychotic... they will tell you.
ZOMBIE !! who just got to move, akathisia... I know
What does ritalin feel like ? JUST LIKE COCAINE ! and I "have" ADD, its calming to be so high and focused until the unfocused anxiety crash that always follows.
TAKE ONE then tell me its effects !! of psych medication thats like "insulin for diabetes" .

but you can bet that the baby boomers that are now entering them and foster care homes will be whining about every other little thing, so it is likely to happen very soon there as well.

Copy_Cat wrote:I wanted to say on this post I believe all psychologists should learn about the EFFECTS of there drugs by TAKING them a few times !!!

For sure, especially since the drugs are harmless. The police get to learn what it feels like to be tazed as part of their training, so I don't see why psychiatrists should not be drugged. How can you prescribe something you don't know anything about except for some paper report from some company with conflicts of interests. Would you trust a cook that refuses to taste his own meals?