Unexpected presents.

Other people have written that a narcissist always wants to be the one who thought of something, came up with an idea, initiated something.

Well, that links into this post. A couple of times, when I received presents, I told the gift giver that the presents were unsuitable, and although I was not conscious of it at the time, I enjoyed their look of dismay. (I felt an unconsciously sadistic enjoyment. As I've written before, a feeling of, "Ha! Serves you right!") Yet on birthdays, at christmas etc., I could put on an effusive act of pleasure and gratitude. Having read the following excerpt, I've just realised - it was the unexpected gifts that were unwelcome, because the control had been taken away from me. This is what I mean :-

Monopolizing Initiative. A narcissist wants to be the 'prime mover,' the source of direction in interpersonal affairs. Targets often come to try to anticipate the needs and wants of the narcissist, by doing or providing something unasked. This is already a dysfunctional adaptation, but the point of this section is beyond that. Miscalculations are always possible in this 'pleasing' maneuver, but with a narcissist, almost always he or she will act like they do not want what has been done or given, and that it is crazy of the target to think that they should. This happens even if the narcissist has shown an overwhelming preference and craving for what they now reject. Besides keeping the target off-balance, it reduces him or her to having to wait around to be told what to do, a very submissive position.

In retrospect, I think that what I felt, when someone gave me an unexpected gift, was anger and contempt. I thought that I was angry because, not having been consulted, I'd been put into the position of having to tell the person that her gift was unsuitable. ("Oh, why did you make me hurt your feelings?") But really, there was a feeling of, "Silly woman, serves you right! Why did you think that you'd know what I wanted? What impertinence!"

It was almost, "How dare you be kind! How weak, how foolish! Fancy thinking that you'd know what I like! Fancy thinking that you could get round me like that."

The problem is, that in trying to recall past feelings, (this can also apply to very recent feelings), I'm sort of scrabbling around in the dark, with no clear idea or memory of what it was that I actually felt. So I have to grab at the first feeling or recollection that comes up, as that's likely to be the most accurate one. It may have come up before, which helps to clarify that it probably is accurante. I'm never quite sure if I'm actually telling the truth or not. (This last paragraph is more of a general point.)

This has been a pattern throughout my life.. albeit as I got older.. I have been able to act more appropriate at my dismay.. I absolutely hate unexpected presents.

I remember even as a child.. no older than 8 or 9.. at Christmas.. my mother buying me clothes and having an absolute fit. I screamed at her.. that I hated it.. I didn't ask for clothes.. I didn't want clothes. And even if I wanted clothes, how dare she think that what she bought me would be something that I would want to wear.. I was so traumatized at the event and so angry that she could do this, I never trusted her again with any gifts.. and even to this day, when I see something wrapped.. or a card with something in it.. I hate opening it.. if I don't now what it is.. I don't want it.

While most kids would just be like.. okay.. thanks.. or say something about.. maybe they don't like it.. I actually got physically upset and screamed and walked away from opening further presents.. because I was so upset that she could think I would want something that I did not pick out at the store as my style.

Without trying 'pick apart' and respond to different parts of your post, I wanted to say that I had a gut feeling of overall understanding in response to what you wrote, and found myself smiling slightly as I read it, in acknowledgement.

(Just had another look); your childhood reaction to your mother's choice of clothes was acting out my internal suppressed feelings, which I experienced subconsciously as contempt and anger, when my mother gave me unexpected presents, of clothes and other things.

bitty wrote:because the control had been taken away from me. This is what I mean :-

Besides keeping the target off-balance, it reduces him or her to having to wait around to be told what to do, a very submissive position.

I'm reaching a solid conclusion that NPD (for me) has been 100% about control. Recently I've posted about:

1. First time I blocked my False Self (after having learned to identify and block my inner narrative). It felt like I was in a harshly lit empty room, exposed to a multitude of things that could fail (out of my control). Basically, exposed to entropy without my false coping skills. Something everyone takes for granted.
   
2. Drown man at boat dock. Felt intense/engulfing sensation like it was the "ultimate failure" (to his family). I had a memorable (overwhelming) sensation of aversion to someone failing me that way, or me them.
   
3. Recently I realized I have a strong "someday" hope that my ex might communicate with me again, be friends. I realized it's another convenient lie. When I chose to accept I never will hear from her, I felt dysphoria which has been rare the past 3 months. Being more attentive to my emotions/state/rationality, I realized dysphoria is the inner narrative. Block it, and it's numb/emptiness (depression).

I was thinking yesterday how all three of those are the same thing. They all involve the same numb "now" (not daydreaming, living in the future or past), just harsh reality, "now." When I rid myself of the last remnant of coping, it's the same thing I felt when I blocked my FS (on a whim).

After I realized that a couple days ago I thought about, if this is reality (numb/empty, not in control) what would it feel like to be in a relationship? I immediately realized that's what I felt at the boat dock. It seems like it would be a constant exposure to someone who could die/change at any minute (a constant recognition of their temporal nature, and mine). Contrast that to how normal people wake up to a spouse and kids, not phased by that. They just live, enjoying another day together.

For me, I can see how it is entirely about control. But, not the way I used to think of control at a macro level (preparing for the worst, being prudent, minimal possessions, make things last, planning). That is easily stopped. But, at a core-existence. Eliminate the narrative and false self: it's overwhelming exposure to reality. It is true existence. But, because of the lack of living a true existence (or having a personality capable of living reality), it's unpleasant. It's better, knowing it's real. But, it immensely less comfortable.

It's like the ending of Code 46—the contrast between living on the "inside"( where the world is planned, controlled, predictable and unwanted memories can be erased) and banishment to the "outside" (harsh, inhospitable, barren).

I think your story is example of the coping mechanisms to avoid that reality. Awhile ago there was another thread about compliments. Ns have the same reaction to compliments as gifts. It's not two temporal beings existing in the moment, exchanging comments/gifts (in a social ritual like monkeys picking through each other's fur for fleas, just to identify as sharing reality together). It's above reality, with a script to make reality more than it is, not common and temporal.

I really think the narrative exists to make reality unique and permanent. It didn't become that noticeable to me until I made a conscious effort to block a narrative-like wish I had. I.e., it seems more noticeable in a low point of remorse/regret/loss than it does when blocking the narrative during normal functioning (which I learned to do 1.5 years ago). It's much more like night/day. In the low point all you have is the hope of the narrative. But, since it's not realistic, not connected to now, it's not healthy. Block that and it's instant nothingness. Just the Agent-self and TS exposed to every passing moment without anything to distract from it.

I think it's entirely about control. Everything we do from silent treatment, to rejecting compliments, all the way down to the day-dreamy narrative.

is the unexpected nature the very extreme end of gift giving? After a certain age, I disliked gifts because they put me at the center of attention... and there was then a correspondingly expectation of an emotional reaction.... joy! Gratitude! Pleasure.... and most people seemed half the time to be overly invested in gifts, especially when a lot of money was involved. The expectation of a response, forced reciprocity, made me hate getting gifts. not as a child though. Started much later.

Yes TTL... control otherwise life seems like a bizarre hallucination at times with people orbiting in and around and no clear order to what made or makes it all work. living in foreign cultures created that sense to me of life and people. I was always trying to guess the meaning of things and emotions and what was ok or not. New culture, New rules. And it was further worsened by a very cold non-empathetic and unaffectionate mother and a rather chaotic father. I shriveled up and died in that all. But I always had empathy and feelings and a conscience and an aware guiding self. I can only imagine how I would have turned out had that not been the case for my personality.

Stopping by on a boring Friday night ...

livingnlearing2 wrote:Stopping by on a boring Friday night ...

@MeAgain should be online any moment.... Maybe you can be his special friend?

Truth too late wrote: Being more attentive to my emotions/state/rationality, I realized dysphoria is the inner narrative. Block it, and it's numb/emptiness (depression)

I've just googled dysphoria, and read, Dysphoria is a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety, or agitation.
Do you mean that dysphoria is a reaction against 'events', whilst the numb, empty feeling is an acceptance of who you are, and what effect that's had?
I sort of accept who I am, and how that's affected someone, but I want everyone in the world to understand and forgive me, because then I can do the same. I know that that's ridiculous, but that's how I feel.

Truth too late wrote:It seems like it would be a constant exposure to someone who could die/change at any minute (a constant recognition of their temporal nature, and mine).

I've had that feeling maybe once in my life, or something similar, perhaps. I thought that I wouldn't cope well with needing someone, then losing them.

Truth too late wrote:For me, I can see how it is entirely about control. But, not the way I used to think of control at a macro level (preparing for the worst, being prudent, minimal possessions, make things last, planning). That is easily stopped. But, at a core-existence. Eliminate the narrative and false self: it's overwhelming exposure to reality. It is true existence. But, because of the lack of living a true existence (or having a personality capable of living reality), it's unpleasant. It's better, knowing it's real. But, it immensely less comfortable....

I think that I can 'feel' what you mean. I just imagined stepping off a spacecraft into space, with that slight stomach flipping sensation that you'd get.

Have you ever just looked at someone, and because you weren't 'forcing yourself along', you've stared too long, or not known what to say, then said the wrong thing, too late? (That should probably go in your 'social awkwardness' thread, which I haven't looked at properly yet, because this public computer is causing problems.) It's a bit like that 'floaty' feeling that people have described, and also, as you say, not having a personality, which would be able to respond authentically.

Truth too late wrote:Block that and it's instant nothingness. Just the Agent-self and TS exposed to every passing moment without anything to distract from it..

Psycopaths just seem to experience that as boredom, but we seem to have anxiety added to the mix.

Truth too late wrote:I think it's entirely about control. Everything we do from silent treatment, to rejecting compliments, all the way down to the day-dreamy narrative.

I thought that it was also about ego? We want everything to reflect well upon us? I agree that control is a huge component, though.

livingnlearing2 wrote:is the unexpected nature the very extreme end of gift giving? After a certain age, I disliked gifts because they put me at the center of attention... and there was then a correspondingly expectation of an emotional reaction.... joy! Gratitude! Pleasure.... and most people seemed half the time to be overly invested in gifts, especially when a lot of money was involved. The expectation of a response, forced reciprocity, made me hate getting gifts. not as a child though. Started much later....

Oh yes, nothing like people expecting an emotional reaction to kill off any existing one, or chance of feeling one.

bitty wrote:

Truth too late wrote: Being more attentive to my emotions/state/rationality, I realized dysphoria is the inner narrative. Block it, and it's numb/emptiness (depression)

I've just googled dysphoria, and read, Dysphoria is a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety, or agitation.

Literally it is the opposite of euphoria. I think of it as depression with emotions. That's how I see it since I've been experiencing something more like what I think depression is (not feeling). And, recently I'm seeing the narrative is the source of dysphoria. Block/reject/deny the false hopes (for example) and it's just numb depression.

bitty wrote:Do you mean that dysphoria is a reaction against 'events', whilst the numb, empty feeling is an acceptance of who you are, and what effect that's had?

I would word it differently. Depression comes from events (disappointments). Dysphoria is the rationalizing feeling (the pining for something that can't be controlled) It's the false hope in the narrative expressed through the low point to *feel* for it, as if feeling for it will change something. It won't. What I think is happening is the FS beating on the TS to make the narrative work; to give the impetus to the FS to make it work.

bitty wrote:I sort of accept who I am, and how that's affected someone, but I want everyone in the world to understand and forgive me, because then I can do the same. I know that that's ridiculous, but that's how I feel.

What you describe is what I think is the narrative. And so, if you were down on yourself about how you can't forgive yourself because you can't have closure from others, I really think that's the narrative being used at a low point to beat your TS to maintain the sensation of "this is real." I feel like I'm able to detect the narrative and block it, reduce it's influence on me. When I treat dysphoria like this, it seems to turn into depression (the dysphoric emotions are gone, just empty).

I only see it this way because I've never experienced depression without dysphoria. So, it seems noticeable to me what each part is now that the dysphoria can be controlled/reduced as a product of the narrative.

bitty wrote:Have you ever just looked at someone, and because you weren't 'forcing yourself along', you've stared too long, or not known what to say, then said the wrong thing, too late? (That should probably go in your 'social awkwardness' thread, which I haven't looked at properly yet, because this public computer is causing problems.) It's a bit like that 'floaty' feeling that people have described, and also, as you say, not having a personality, which would be able to respond authentically.

Yes, I've experienced that. I think being lost in the narrative is a lot like that. But, the empty sensation I described is more like a point of existence, harsh reality. It's not spacey, it's too real. It's like being "out of your element" (a term to express one's lack of capability).

bitty wrote:

Truth too late wrote:Block that and it's instant nothingness. Just the Agent-self and TS exposed to every passing moment without anything to distract from it..

Psycopaths just seem to experience that as boredom, but we seem to have anxiety added to the mix.

That's probably a good comparison and supports the idea that the emotions belong to the TS. That it's presence (or ability to connect to it) is the difference between NPD and psychopathy.

I originally thought I didn't have a TS. I thought my emotions were part of my Agent-self. I guess I was expecting something more substantial. (Blind dates, always a surprise!). But, now I see it as emotions and they probably originate from the Presence, but now they go through the TS to me, not through the FS. (Just how I describe what I perceive.).

bitty wrote:

Truth too late wrote:I think it's entirely about control. Everything we do from silent treatment, to rejecting compliments, all the way down to the day-dreamy narrative.

I thought that it was also about ego? We want everything to reflect well upon us? I agree that control is a huge component, though.

I think of projection as an act of control too. We don't stoop to actually controlling people, we settle for them being us. We just treat them as us, expect them to read our minds, support the most ludicrous self-image. No need to sweat the details when we have a really good lie which will accomplish the same thing.

Truth too late wrote:

bitty wrote:I sort of accept who I am, and how that's affected someone, but I want everyone in the world to understand and forgive me, because then I can do the same. I know that that's ridiculous, but that's how I feel.

What you describe is what I think is the narrative. And so, if you were down on yourself about how you can't forgive yourself because you can't have closure from others, I really think that's the narrative being used at a low point to beat your TS to maintain the sensation of "this is real.".

To some extent it may be, but it's more conscious with me - I do know that it's not real, really. I feel that I have to 'keep myself in prison', by judging myself through other people's eyes, because I know that I deserve that. I don't actually feel remorse, my feelings are all for myself, but I can't allow myself to go through life as happily as I'm capable of doing, because that wouldn't be 'just'. There's a judge and jury (made up of other people) in my head.

Truth too late wrote:I think of projection as an act of control too. We don't stoop to actually controlling people, we settle for them being us. We just treat them as us, expect them to read our minds, support the most ludicrous self-image. No need to sweat the details when we have a really good lie which will accomplish the same thing.

Yes, that puts it well. In the way that you described, I'd be subconsciously thinking, "I'm not controlling you. You don't have separate thoughts or feelings, so you should be doing what I want/expect you to do."

bitty wrote:

Truth too late wrote:

bitty wrote:I sort of accept who I am, and how that's affected someone, but I want everyone in the world to understand and forgive me, because then I can do the same. I know that that's ridiculous, but that's how I feel.

What you describe is what I think is the narrative. And so, if you were down on yourself about how you can't forgive yourself because you can't have closure from others, I really think that's the narrative being used at a low point to beat your TS to maintain the sensation of "this is real.".

To some extent it may be, but it's more conscious with me - I do know that it's not real, really. I feel that I have to 'keep myself in prison', by judging myself through other people's eyes, because I know that I deserve that. I don't actually feel remorse, my feelings are all for myself, but I can't allow myself to go through life as happily as I'm capable of doing, because that wouldn't be 'just'. There's a judge and jury (made up of other people) in my head.

I was going to reply to you here. But, I replied in 2-3 other posts today. However, I wanted to say that I've had a recurring suspicion this activity is "milking" the past (or, hopes for the future) since relating to cNPD 1.5 years ago. When I've referred to "polishing the mirros," that's what I've referred to. But, I thought some pining/longing/remorse/regret/sorrow (dysphoria) was "good." It feels true and validating.

Part of the reason I've been wary is because Vaknin's 9-part essay said some things about how one's NPD can become the narrative itself (like, maybe it did for him? It could be for me too considering the time I put into it.). I was always wary of how much inward focus I had. I.e., how much is mindfulness versus obsession and "supply." I also wondered if my dysphoric emotions weren't "polishing the mirrors" inside.

I.e., if I hurt someone, suffered a loss, the more I feel could imply they felt it just as importantly as I do. That they would be as happy of my "new monkey" as I am. If they've moved on and I haven't, is it another asymmetry? (But, as I said, that could also be an excuse not to fully appreciate the gravity of the regret which came from self-awareness. I definitely would err on the side of self-condemnation. I think the risk is to take it too lightly and lose sight of how profound the repeating patterns are. But, I think it can also go too long and become a continuation of the pattern -- holding back proper "living in the 'now'".).

Recently I mentioned I was going through Vaknin's 9-part essay a second time (1-1.5 years later), summarizing key topics that seem important to me so I have a "concordance" to help me remember where things are. I mentioned I had one more chapter to read. I just began that chapter and it says almost exactly what I've been trying to describe. He describes the start of a narcissistic injury/crisis and how a "Reactive Repertoire" is employed to escape reality. He describes the RR in Chapter 6 about 1/4 of the way down the page. It involves dysphoria. ("Dysphoria is an element within a larger emotional reactive pattern. This emotional barrage provokes self-healing through avoidance and escapism. I call this reactive pattern the Reactive Repertoire.").

Anyway, he says about this dysphoria/crisis and the RR:

CHAPTER NINE: LOSS OF CONTROL OF GRANDIOSITY

All this is done mainly to protect the FEGO. The narcissist "knows" that when the FEGO is shattered, the ability of the Hyperconstruct to resist the punitive influence of the SEGO (Superego) dwindles and both TEGO (True Self) and the narcissist's relations with outside objects are in danger.
http://samvak.tripod.com/msla9.html

I think that's what I'm describing as the TS (he calls True Ego=TEGO) being flogged for more motivation to keep trying, to animate the narrative -- make it real, believable, something the FS (or FEGO as he calls it) can feel as an "end goal," that the narcissistic investment wasn't in vain. He says the RR "is the physical dimension of the narcissist's constant evasion of life and reality."

To me that describes dysphoria perfectly. If you consciously consider what is being ruminated, the source of the self-pity, it is an evasion of reality *now*. If you choose to realize the unrealistic hopes/regrets, it becomes a numb empty existence. There's nothing to feel for. You might even come out of the depression sooner because you're "clear" about what's going on and you're not beating on your TS to feel disproportionately for what is basically an idealized past. You have to look for a more realistic source. Maybe a starting point is to take credit that you have begun to protect your TS from the FS/Narrative (the Hyperconstruct as he describes it)?

I've said before that Tapping/EFT has helped me because it forces you to articulate what the conflict is. So, in my case, "she won't communicate to me again. This makes me feel sad, like what I took seriously was in vain. Like it wasn't validated. But, that's ok. I don't have to be validated to know that what I've faced was real. Nothing about that changes."

That EFT "conflict statement" (which you tap into your conscious) helps to recognize the source of dysphoria, and accept that there's no point feeling strongly about it. I can't control it. I can't influence it. It's a 2.5-year emotion that serves no purpose except to make reality softer ("maybe there's a chance... and the stronger I feel makes it more real, more genuine."). Invalidating that hope doesn't extinguish how glad I would be to hear from her. It simply puts the hope in proper perspective. There is no hope and if I really would treat such communication appropriately (normally) I wouldn't invest unrealistic hope in it, and react to that hope (or the fear that it's unrealistic) so emotionally. I.e., the rumination and sharp-panged depression isn't a sign of having learned the lesson I believe I've learned. (I.e., I can recognize the narrative and turn away from it, I am mindful and can function more normally, realistically, not affected by an inner lie.).

It was easy to turn away from the narrative in functional activities (where I might unconsciously cast a bystander into my inner sense of who I am, and how a bystander doesn't confirm it). It's hard to do in a low point because it feels real and it's all you have. If I can't suck on the past I have to find a more adaptive way to give myself supply (when there is none, and that's why I suck on the past).

I don't know if that makes sense. I thought it was ironic that I began to read Chapter 9 and it stood out to me so clearly. I opened Chapter 9 a few days ago but I don't think I looked at it. I think it was coincidence that I began to take it serious.

In fact, it was another post a few days ago when you said I was helping people which put me in a low point and made me really think whether I'm sucking on the past (dysphoria, unhealthy narrative about the past). My first thought was "yeah, everyone except the one person I wanted to." That's when I made a stronger connection that the dysphoria is the narrative which includes false hope, idealized and pined-for salvaged past/people. It was a day or two later I decided I'm going to accept I'm lying to myself like I always have, that there's something *toxic* in this grief/remorse/hope (and others that I find myself dwelling on in low points).

So, this has been coincidental in a couple ways. I think the challenge is to know what's too much, because I do think terrific pain (tearing down the false layers, accepting what I do, how bad it is, etc.) was fundamental to how relatively easily I accepted NPD after a year of tear-down, honest introspection. If I'd seen NPD before I shattered, I would have argued against it, rationalized, spun my self-awareness in a way to minimize it.

(On the other hand, if I'd seen a therapist a year ago, I'd probably be a lot further along than carving limbs off to see what happens. Have I mentioned by DIY pacemaker implant next week? I think it's going to go well. ).