Defending Pride and Core of NPD

Truth too late wrote:

bitty wrote:Twistednerve, you've written in the past about 'chemical experimentation', haven't you, being able to shift your mindset with drugs?

I do that npd is a strange disorder, despite my belief in its genetic origins, because of the strong element of self deception.

I started to reply to this earlier, but thought it would be off topic. However, I noticed you mentioned something similar in a reply to @sven. Are you contemplating something?

No, I'll stick to antidepressants and wine! I nearly added your name to Twistednerve's, as you've written before about cannabis giving you insights.

You wrote about cannabis use, after realising that something was deeply wrong, and how it helped you to more strongly understand what you did; sort of opened up your mind. For me, my breakthrough started when I stopped taking antidepressants, became increasingly anxious, and more consciously and strongly aware of how badly I had affected someone.

Truth too late wrote:I sometimes feel numb or anxious with the realization "this is it." This is me, I can't be someone else, a lot of time was wasted, I can't fix things, etc. Cannabis helps with that.

I think that I know what you mean about feeling numb and anxious. It's weird how they can co-exist. I also find it strange that people probably think that 'I don't have a care in the world, I'm just a bit batty', and I can't tell them how I really feel. I don't have the feeling of having wasted my life, although it certainly hasn't been well spent.

Off topic, but whilst I'm thinking of it - I get the impression that you very much write what you're thinking, no holds barred, and yet I also get an impression of kindness, or good intentions. (And that people are helped by your posts.) I wish that I could do that, but ocd and other stuff hold me back.

Truth too late wrote:I think it does affect clarity of thought, ability to maintain complex details, follow a plan, continuity over days, weeks. Especially when I first started. I don't know if I have resistance now, but I don't notice that feeling now. Perhaps related to this, I saw in the news about a year ago that there are definite brainwave/activity differences in cannabis smokers. It said something about new pathways being opened. Thoughts that used to go through one pathway, go through another. I remember it showed a brainwave scan (before/after). Maybe that's what I experienced. Maybe it's not necessarily positive for the average person. But, it helped me immensely.

I read recently that to experience creativity, you have to experience change; by travelling for example. Maybe those changes of of neural pathways that you wrote about opened your mind up to new ideas.

Not connected, but I think that we narcissists live too much in our conscious minds, but we don't dare do otherwise. It scares me when I'm not 'steering' my social interactions; god knows what I'll say. I usually manage to put my foot in it.

Sorry if this is disconnected and all over the place, I'm well into my second large glass of wine!

bitty wrote:Off topic, but whilst I'm thinking of it - I get the impression that you very much write what you're thinking, no holds barred, and yet I also get an impression of kindness, or good intentions. (And that people are helped by your posts.) I wish that I could do that, but ocd and other stuff hold me back.

Oh no. Now you've done it....

I think that, for me, the raw materials for my narcissism were my unacceptable traits of selfishness, temper, callousness etc., and my narcissism developed as I realised that these had to be hidden in order to fit in with others; I was unwilling to admit them to myself, either.

Those traits are neither terrible nor lovely, only traits. It's the degree to which they are expressed and what drives them to the surface of interactions. Do you have control over those ? As you are aware, then you must, and then the fallout/ consequences are yours. Which may include guilt and shame or even disgust with yourself. The get out of jail free card is " self forgiveness" but that only feeds the denial mechanism once, after that, it becomes a never ending story of the same repeating behaviors.

bitty,

You're ok by my book, and I'm a non, a'ight? You write very much what you're thinking, no holds barred, and I get an impression of honesty.

It's funny, the thing about anti-depressants. It works wonders in some ppl, but not others. Works well for my spouse, if and when he takes the regimen, but not when he ignores it. Drugs do different things for different ppl, as I'm sure TTL would say same.

Thanks, reality; I try to be honest, but I have to leave stuff out for fear of triggering people. I became less ratty and thin skinned when I started antidepressants, about fifteen years ago. Is it the same for your spouse?

Oh, yes. Big diff, which he didn't seem to notice, but others saw it clear as day.

bitty wrote:Clamence, I've just read your post once, and there was much of it that I didn't fully understand, but it was interesting, including your views of and beyond the various stances on personality disorders.

You wrote that paradigms are imposed after a degree of knowledge is gained, and the facts are sort of fitted around them, to suit a theory. (Is that right?)

What do you believe are the causes of personality disorders - or, rather, those where the causes are debated? (Especially, as I'm a narcissist, of npd?)

I wasn't very clear in that post, mostly because I was just speculating; I don't have answers to those questions.

Regarding paradigms, I see them as "trends" in observation, scientific institutions and societies and interpretation of the results that can vary but tend to stabilize themselves for a while mostly due to the activity of scientific institutions.

An observational standard can be, for instance, to believe that the whole is just the addition of the parts. This standard can be associated with the interpretational standard that what we see "in vitro" can be extrapolated to what takes place "in vivo". This paradigm could be developed both in the natural sciences and the social ones in scientific institutions that prioritize the gathering of the results of "in vitro" experiments.


As for «the cause» of PDs, I don't have an answer, nor do I believe there is one; there are probably multiple causes:
1) Social causes (also in the specialists sub-community):
Cultural traits that make a certain classification prevail among others possibles and that stigmatizes some traits (thus individuals doing the same, in the case of ego-dystonic PDs)
+ agreements between psychiatrists, psychologists and other specialists to categorize PDs in a certain way and to portray the PDs in some particular ways
2) Cultural dynamics:
Disordered individuals are usually born in somewhat disordered environments: our cultural surroundings (from society to family) affect our upbringing
3) "Unusual" inborn traits:
And I think this is the main cause of PDs, because I don't think that they are mainly cultural constructs [they would be if 1) was the cause] nor systemic disorders [they would be if 2) was the cause]: I think there is something deeply real in PDs, that specialists categorize in a certain way according to social expectations of what is normal and according to consensus about the diagnosis and treatment of PDs (trait-lists are made to quickly detect PDs by their symptoms to be able to "treat" them/ suppress the symptoms.
Conventional medicine [and most science] is not interested in the causes, which are too metaphysical and apparently unrelated to the symptom->antidote mindset.
What could these inborn traits be? Hormonal imbalances, neurological differences and the like. To sum up: physiological dispositions. And it's through the study of this physiological differences that we will progressively abandon the psychoanalytic stress on biography and trauma. Trauma can be caused by a specific disposition (what traumatizes one child leaves the other indifferent) and trauma is also physiological (prioritization of the sympathetic nervous system, decrease in dopamine…).

This is why I am usually more interested in learning about ADHD than about PDs (I am diagnosed with both ADHD and traits of cluster B PDs [I didn't go through therapy for that so I don't know what traits, what PDs... I can just speculate]): ADHD has a physiological-neurological explanation (even if it was developed after trauma, or whatever). Also, my ADHD explains many pre-symptoms of my somewhat "disordered" personality (proneness to boredom, seeking of thrill, detachment from others, impulsivity, minor obsessions, irritability, emotional dysregulation), but not all (and specifically, not most of my narcissistic traits, which may be reactive and defensive in their origin).
I've also observed that many people here, besides having some PD-comorbidity, also happen to have an Axis-I (I think it's not called like that anymore) disorder, such as OCD, ADHD, SAD…


I was out of the city last week so I couldn't respond earlier. My apologies! : D

Truth too late wrote:I sometimes feel numb or anxious with the realization "this is it." This is me, I can't be someone else, a lot of time was wasted, I can't fix things, etc. Cannabis helps with that.

I haven't smoked in a long time after a really bad experience after mixing alcohol and weed but I remember it used to help me "soothe" and enjoy the moment. I usually live not in the now but in the next 5 seconds, always anticipating; or in the past 5 hours, always thinking what could have been and imagining seeing me as a spectator.

bitty wrote:I think that I know what you mean about feeling numb and anxious. It's weird how they can co-exist.

I usually start feeling anxious when numb, mostly because I need to set boundaries again and regain control of my life. If I happen to feel numb and not anxious, it's probably because I'm self-indulging and being self-destructive (very unusual lately).
That's another reason why I don't smoke anymore: used to make me numb and, therefore, anxious. I don't seem to be able to let go completely.

bitty wrote:I don't have the feeling of having wasted my life, although it certainly hasn't been well spent.

I'm probably too young to be asking myself if I've wasted my life or not, but I do it all the time anyways. I feel like I don't appreciate my achievements as much as others would in my place.

Truth too late wrote:Perhaps related to this, I saw in the news about a year ago that there are definite brainwave/activity differences in cannabis smokers. It said something about new pathways being opened. Thoughts that used to go through one pathway, go through another. I remember it showed a brainwave scan (before/after). Maybe that's what I experienced. Maybe it's not necessarily positive for the average person. But, it helped me immensely.

I am very interested in the science behind brainwaves scans. I usually listen to Binaural Beats and Isochronic tones: it's most likely placebo, but it still helps and it's free and, as far as I know, innocuous.

bitty wrote:I read recently that to experience creativity, you have to experience change; by travelling for example. Maybe those changes of of neural pathways that you wrote about opened your mind up to new ideas.

I can totally relate to that statement. I have to constantly move and do new things to feel "alive": start and discard hobbies, relationships, diets; travel, … Otherwise, I feel numb and half-dead.

bitty wrote:Not connected, but I think that we narcissists live too much in our conscious minds, but we don't dare do otherwise. It scares me when I'm not 'steering' my social interactions; god knows what I'll say. I usually manage to put my foot in it.

I don't think I've understood the whole paragraph, but I definitely live too much in my conscious mind, always having a monologue in my head, always thinking everything twice.

bitty wrote:Sorry if this is disconnected and all over the place, I'm well into my second large glass of wine!

I can't drink before nightime because it also makes me feel numb and anxious (most substances have a huge effect on me) but yeah, alcohol can also help the soothing!

I think this post can be related to religion in a very similar aspect. We all need 'something' to latch on to that makes us happy.

Most well adjusted people that have many things going for them, do not seem to be bothered at other people and their thoughts towards their religion and their god. they brush it off.. it's just one of the things in their life that makes them happy and most well-adjusted religious individuals understand that everyone has different beliefs and are entitled to them..

On the other extreme.. I've noticed that people that appear to have nothing going for them and/or miserable.. viciously attack anyone that dares question their religion..

These extreme cases of individuals most likely are so miserable and have nothing else going for them but their belief that their so-called god has a plan for them..

When one questions the authenticity of their god to be fake.. they realize that the only thing going for them is being attacked and they lash out without rationale or reason to defend their understanding in their religion.. as someone attacking their god and beliefs.. is attacking their only reason to live.

Clamence wrote:What could these inborn traits be? Hormonal imbalances, neurological differences and the like. To sum up: physiological dispositions. And it's through the study of this physiological differences that we will progressively abandon the psychoanalytic stress on biography and trauma. Trauma can be caused by a specific disposition (what traumatizes one child leaves the other indifferent) and trauma is also physiological (prioritization of the sympathetic nervous system, decrease in dopamine…)

I think that the fact that so many narcissists think and feel in the same way, does point towards us having similar hormonal imbalances and neurological differences to the norm. (I just googled 'low dopamine' and 'low oxytocin', and got these results, which certainly support the idea of (the lack of) hormones having some influence on personality disorders) -

(What dopamine normally influences) -

•Sensation of pleasure
•Feelings of attachments and love
•Unselfish care and wellbeing of others or more commonly Sense of Altruism
•Integrating thoughts and feelings.

Low dopamine levels result in the following conditions -

•Pleasure lackness (Anhedonia)
•Lacking the feeling of attachments or love
•Lacking remorse for one’s actions
•Distraction

You mentioned the sympathetic nervous system; I've just read the following -

Oxytocin – is the powerful hormone of love, bonding and connection....Oxytocin and cortisol oppose each other....When one goes up, the other is forced to go down. The key is balancing the two.

Sorry, I realise that I'm not telling you anything that you didn't already know.

Clamence wrote:This is why I am usually more interested in learning about ADHD than about PDs (I am diagnosed with both ADHD and traits of cluster B PDs [I didn't go through therapy for that so I don't know what traits, what PDs... I can just speculate]): ADHD has a physiological-neurological explanation (even if it was developed after trauma, or whatever). Also, my ADHD explains many pre-symptoms of my somewhat "disordered" personality (proneness to boredom, seeking of thrill, detachment from others, impulsivity, minor obsessions, irritability, emotional dysregulation), but not all (and specifically, not most of my narcissistic traits, which may be reactive and defensive in their origin).

Do you mean that you believe that you developed your narcissistic traits in response to your upbringing? I believe that I was born with the 'raw ingredients' for narcissism, which inevitably led to its development, when I realised the unacceptibility of those 'ingredients'/traits, and 'defended' (disguised) myself against social disapproval.

Clamence wrote:I've also observed that many people here, besides having some PD-comorbidity, also happen to have an Axis-I (I think it's not called like that anymore) disorder, such as OCD, ADHD, SAD…

I do have ocd,and although I don't have adhd, I'm terrible at sitting still and concentrating. (Not saying that that's nearly the same thing though.)

Clamence wrote:

bitty wrote:Not connected, but I think that we narcissists live too much in our conscious minds, but we don't dare do otherwise. It scares me when I'm not 'steering' my social interactions; god knows what I'll say. I usually manage to put my foot in it.

I don't think I've understood the whole paragraph, but I definitely live too much in my conscious mind, always having a monologue in my head, always thinking everything twice.

I don't think that I've understood it either, now that I've re-read it! I just mean that I'm never not conscious of myself; I never lose myself in the moment. Or rarely - when I do, that's when I can get a flash of insight, or actual emotion, or even, on rare occassions, affective empathy. But, in company, if I don't watch what I say, I'm likely to offend someone.