The "Anger" Weapon

Why do some pd's want to actually make you angry, during times or situations when they know your anger will be directed at them?

Has anyone else noticed this? Say the pd woman yells at a man and calls him names hoping he will hit her so she can run to the police or family and show off her black eye and get him in troulbe. Say she even follows him out of the house, to his car, yelling at him the whole time and raging at him even blocking his entrace to the car?

How is that not verbally aggressive on her part (she would have had quite a roll in the matter too, not that two wrongs make a right)? It is an extreme example I put up top, but in small and petty areas, it appears the pd ex wife is trying to get me angry so I will react. Then when I react (hence my Aggressor Thead), she will use my reaction as a ticket to get her the best seats available at a professional victim show.

Yet, why make themselves a target by intentionally making people angry at them? I would figure that I'd try to only make them angry at others, but at themselves?

What power do some pd's feel that obtain by making people so angry at them that they say mean things, insulting things (true or not), and the like?

Simply because getting another person angry is control over them.

There is this marvelous series of videos created by a man named George Thompson: "Verbal Judo, the Gentle Art of Persuasion." Thompson was an English professor who decided he would rather be a street cop or deputy, I forgot which, in New Mexico. When he became a cop he was heavily trained in martial arts and firearms and all that cool stuff people expect cops to be good at from watching TV.
But Thompson noticed that tactical communication...essentially showing people respect, even as you had to arrest them, eliminated much of the violent interactions between people who broke the law and the police. Because most cops had no training in tactical communication he decided to make it a priority. A lot of the violence and law suits stopped in those departments that embraced his program.

But to be effective at Verbal Judo, Thompson first told the cops that he trained that they must cover up their buttons...because if people see your buttons, and know how to push them, then they own you.

Some very good points there Orion. It usually helps to deflect anger by remaining calm and assertive and there are techniques on the internet to explain how this is done.

Very often the person with the PD has grown up in an atmoshpere of anger, or has learnt to be angry as a result of environmental factors. For them, anger becomes a learnt response. For others, who have learnt through abuse to suppress their anger TO AN UNHEALTHY degree, and not to express it, they may have learnt to seek out partners who express unhealthy degrees of anger. In both cases, the person with the personality disorder, is repeating the dynamics of their childhood. Very often the partner, whether he is co dependent, disordered himself, neurotic or simply swamped in the dynamics, is sucked into the dynamics of the person with the PD, and a volatile relationship based upon anger will result. Some PDs have learnt to be the aggressor because they witnessed their parents aggression, and a form of "identification with the aggressor" (Google this) will have resulted. In all of these cases,the nons boundaries will have become blurred, as he or she is sucked into the negative pattern.

The residual anger from these dynamics, and the anger felt as a result of the grieving process at the end of the relationship, can eat away at the non if it is not dealt with. Therapy of course can help. If the anger is ongoing, perhaps as the result of a divorce etc, it needs to be expressed SAFELY, and it needs to find an outlet HARMLESSLY. Going to the gym, taking part in sports, and learning relaxation techniques can help. It is important to find a balance, perhaps by learning how to relax calmly, perhaps by meditation or practicing mindfulness, and talking about ones feelings.

Hi jm -

From my observation, and understanding:

A key aspect of cluster B type personalities involves a push-pull personality dynamic. Different types express the dynamic in different ways, arguably the ASPD type being an extreme of near permanent push, but I would say on some level cluster B types, while they may want to be loved at times, also struggle with ambivalent feelings of wanting to be abandoned/alone. I think it would be correct to say, when alone, nobody can hurt them any further. From that point of view it can feel 'safe', though soon enough the need to be loved comes back, then once feeling loved, the cycle turns the other way and they sometimes preemptively strike out, taking control, before their fears of being hurt or entirely abandoned happen again. In a way, it's a form of taking control before the other person can.

Illogical? Sort of. We all have ambivalent feelings. Just that most of us integrate them, add them up, and weigh how we feel in total on a grey scale. For someone with black/white feelings who hasn't integrated, they can swing back and forth between their conflicted feelings, but they can't handle both/many conflicted feelings at the same time. Hey, haven't we all had moments in a relationship where we just felt like 'f-it' but we weight that against all else that has happened, and all else we feel, and don't just go with f-it. Someone will black and white feelings may just go with f-it, forget all else no matter the long term cost, then later forget that too, and feel all is right again.

I think xdude's point is a really interesting one.

Usually for me it was a way of somehow getting what I wanted, or getting even with someone. When I lost the control it made me angrier than almost anything else.

I was also told by my therapist that making my dad angry in the days when I lived at home was sort of a first strike, so to speak - I would lash out before he could, as sort of a defense mechanism. That theory seemed valid to me.

orion8591 wrote:But to be effective at Verbal Judo, Thompson first told the cops that he trained that they must cover up their buttons...because if people see your buttons, and know how to push them, then they own you.

There's a different way those cops could overcome that problem, by being unafraid to face their own fears of having weaknesses, so every time another person pushes their buttons they simply recognise it and re-evaluate having learned something.

But forgetting cops and talking Cluster Bs, that phrase probably just reflects the world through the eyes of some; if the person reacts with anger or any other action or emotion, it leaves the person with the PD free to think they are controlling them, or "own them";

..and if they fail to react they'll also see themselves as safely having the upper hand. Hence the self-fullfilling prophecy or trying to make others angry to be in the safe position of having the power repeats.

The other aspect is "being addicted to conflict" this tends to happen with people who grew up with conflict around them, and for those who were interpersonally emotionally involved with that conflict, they might try to translate that into their existing friendships and relationships.

Others may be addicted to conflict but have no personal/emotional interest in it, so end up seeking out conflict in other ways or places.

Mavet wrote:Usually for me it was a way of somehow getting what I wanted, or getting even with someone. When I lost the control it made me angrier than almost anything else.

I was also told by my therapist that making my dad angry in the days when I lived at home was sort of a first strike, so to speak - I would lash out before he could, as sort of a defense mechanism. That theory seemed valid to me.

Interesting point as well. There could be multiple reasons/motivations behind lashing out, including as you wrote, an aggressive way to try and get what someone wants.

I'm likely also mixing up the NON's point of view in my perception. What I mean is lashing out tends to have the long term effect of pushing others away.

That written, I've also experienced, and read various forum posts to the effect that the PD/NON or PD/PD bond can feel (unhealthy) stronger for people with some disorders IF the other person repeatedly comes back. Sort of a confirmation that if someone comes back after a fight, it's a kind of proof that they really care. From the NON's point of view, that kind of cycle can end up feeling like a never ending and utterly exhausting test; they'd rather the strength of the relationship be measured in terms of how long the couple can feel good together without a fight, without hurting each other.

xdude wrote:From the NON's point of view, that kind of cycle can end up feeling like a never ending and utterly exhausting test; they'd rather the strength of the relationship be measured in terms of how long the couple can feel good together without a fight, without hurting each other.

Agreed.

Also the case for people with PDs whose PD isn't centred around relationships.

For both Nons and those, the idea of deliberate interpersonal abuse and bonding going hand in hand is hard to process.

Examples of how this can be hard for others to process;

For the Non, the conflict would be undesirable in any area of their life and conflict would be a last resort.

For a schizoid or avoidant without comorbid Cluster B disorders, if a relationship was ever going to form they might retreat/withdraw (benignly) when another person got too close, with a simple desire to get away and no need to harm, the person may most likely just disappear.

To a prototypical psychopath, any person they deliberately abuse is essentially fair game, an object to them, of no value, respect is out of the question as is affection, and "bonding" is not likely to be of interest. - except for example in certain cases of extreme violence where those things might come into the equation in other ways, that would generally be considered outside "normal human relations". So if a psychopath attempted to undertake treatment, "bonding" and "psychological abuse" would not necessarily make sense put together either.

So people with a different "PD profile" would also fail to process psychologically abusive behaviour coming from a person with a "PD profile" that combined a need for that sort of interpersonal conflict with a need for closeness and bonding.

In the case of people with other less interpersonally orientated PDs, depending on their own condition(s), they may see some actions as sources of anger and irritation in a different way than a non might, and other actions as overstepping the line.

Quite often, I anger my significant other unknowingly. I don't mean to, but somehow (due to lack of empathy?), I rub him the wrong way and he gets ticked off. Since I don't understand the angry reaction and the cause, I really don't feel bad or guilty. I get MAD at him because he's MAD at me, and I pretty much lash out because he's withholding affection. At that point, I disconnect and want to avenge my feelings of rejection. Ever hear that saying, "You hate the one you hurt", yeah, summarized! From that point, I toy with, and anger him further. I might have been feeling depressed before, but with each outburst, I feel more and more glee. He punches the wall, breaks stuff, storms off angrily, I laugh and have the biggest smile on my face. The fact that I'm unaffected by him when he's so clearly suffering, really pains him. I know that I've won. I feel elated.

xdude wrote:That written, I've also experienced, and read various forum posts to the effect that the PD/NON or PD/PD bond can feel (unhealthy) stronger for people with some disorders IF the other person repeatedly comes back. Sort of a confirmation that if someone comes back after a fight, it's a kind of proof that they really care. From the NON's point of view, that kind of cycle can end up feeling like a never ending and utterly exhausting test; they'd rather the strength of the relationship be measured in terms of how long the couple can feel good together without a fight, without hurting each other.

Unfortunately, I do not trust the connection with another unless he's gone through this cycle. Repeatedly. I also do not understand the "comfort" of normalcy. If things are too good, it feels fake, and I am extremely uncomfortable/out of my element/confused in that enviroment.

van4ssa wrote:

xdude wrote:That written, I've also experienced, and read various forum posts to the effect that the PD/NON or PD/PD bond can feel (unhealthy) stronger for people with some disorders IF the other person repeatedly comes back. Sort of a confirmation that if someone comes back after a fight, it's a kind of proof that they really care. From the NON's point of view, that kind of cycle can end up feeling like a never ending and utterly exhausting test; they'd rather the strength of the relationship be measured in terms of how long the couple can feel good together without a fight, without hurting each other.

Unfortunately, I do not trust the connection with another unless he's gone through this cycle. Repeatedly. I also do not understand the "comfort" of normalcy. If things are too good, it feels fake, and I am extremely uncomfortable/out of my element/confused in that enviroment.

I've read this many times in various forms, and experienced myself, so I understand it on some level. Just ah, yea, it's a really painful way to live.