dumb questionz..!~

Hiya..!~ rinZU here. asking stupid questionz. It'z said we're all part of one person. We make up one full personality. But I don't think it'z true. I read somewhere that alterz don't have full personalitiez which dozn't make sense to me. I have my own personality. We all do in here. It'z just how it iz. It seemz it would depend how someone definez personality? Dictionary sayz "The combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character" but iz it different in psychology? My characteristicz are unique from everybody else in here.. honestly the most we have in common w/ eachother iz a body - that'z it.. If personality iz the spirit of the one body I also don't think it fitz...i mean we were never one person anyway? One body shure yea.. but not one soul or w/e.. it waz alwayz divided and got more divided thru time.. Saying it iz all one person but different alterz of one person seemz outdated to me for thiz reason? It'z not like I am Sour Jenny'z alternate or w/e...(btw there iz nobody here named Sour Jenny i just thought it waz a kinda funny name given circumstancez..hehe...typical A-hole rinZU here..) We are full people with our own personalitiez and we wouldnt ever EVER fit together in just one personality..that'z silly nonsense.. Let'z say that if it waz true, and once there waz just one person, then sh*t happened, and their personality didnt get all squishy and unified, and different partz of that personality had different life experiencez and became very unique to eachother, iz that what they mean? If so it'z still weird why it'z not OK to say we're seperate personalitiez... I mean whatz the difference between my identity and my personality? My identity iz who and what I am as a person that makez me identifiable from somebody else, what definez me or w/e, and my personality also definez me coz it'z the combination of my own quirkz and patternz of thoughtz and stuff? Maybe I am thinking too much or too little..it'z hard to tell sometimez..hehe..so ya I don't get it. Never read psychology bookz. They bore me. So that'z why thiz iz probably stupid..coz if I looked maybe I would find out..oh well.. Can someone explain?

ty so much! Catch u later guyz and girlz (..and anyone inbetween or neither or both or w/e..of any speciez or form or type.. u kno..it'z multiplez..I dont wanna leave anyone out! ha) [rinZU]

it is true. it is indeed very true.

alters/fragments are all parts of one single person and personality.


HOWEVER, this does not mean that alters cannot seem to have their own personality. alters can be very complex, i mean, they've developed their own identities, so of course they're going to seem to have their own personality.


but in reality, they are parts that make up one, single, and the same person/personality. alters/fragments are like puzzle pieces. the person/personality is the whole picture once you fit all the puzzle pieces together. but each puzzle piece is a different shape, and has a different piece of the picture on it, and some pieces of the picture can include a lot of detail and be very complex.


DID- oh wait, *possible trigger warning, talk of development*
DID/DDNOS-1 is developed through the disruption of the personality development processes.

we all start out with neurons in our brain that make up our personality.

with normal development, these neurons become structured together, some are kept, others gotten rid of, everything becomes sorta "melded" together, and then when the structuring process is done, you have a whole personality.

with DID development, the structuring process is disrupted, and so the neurons do not "meld" together, instead they stay separated. these separated neurons create and form "sides" of the personality, and they are what later develop into alters/fragments.




if it is ok, i'd like to post a reply i wrote elsewhere that i think might "fit" for an answer here, at least for the most part.


"DID is made subconsciously by the brain during childhood in order to survive and cope. essentially, what everyone is saying here does indeed happen, only SUBCONSCIOUSLY. the child experiences trauma that he/she cannot cope with at the time, the child dissociaties to cope, the child separates themselves from the event (wishing it wasn't them, telling themselves they're not there, telling themselves it's not happening, telling themselves it's happening to someone else, perhaps experiencing out-of-body stuff, etc), the brain reacts to the dissociation because it's still at the developmental stages where separation like that can happen to that extent, and thus, the personality neurons stay separated, and alters begin to develop from those separated personality neurons. this all happens without knowledge, this all happens without awareness, and this all continues to develop without the child being aware of it or knowing what's going on. this is why people realize and come to discover that they have DID later on in life. children aren't aware of the DID development and don't realize/know what's going on, especially not on a conscious level. their brain, however, is working hard subconsciously, using dissociation and separation to cope with things, and developing alters from the separated personality neurons that ended up not becoming structured together due to the trauma experienced.




Again, EVERYONE at ANY AGE can have PTSD, C-PTSD, and ASD, and everyone at any age can develop EP's/Emotional Parts, but that does not mean they are alters, and that does not mean they have DDNOS-1/DID. because they are not. they are not separated personality neurons, they did not develop separately, they were forced to seem separated by trauma, and they will seem/feel separated until the trauma is properly processed.

only people with DDNOS-1/DID will have ANP's, and only they will have fully developed, fully separated, "true" alters, not just parts.

DDNOS-1/DID only develops in childhood because again, that's the time period where the brain can develop these conditions. that is the time period when the brain is still structuring neurons, and neurons can still be left/become separated, and thus form alters. after childhood, the neurons are already structured, they are already "melded" together, they have already formed the personality, and they do not become "unstructured" or "unmelded" after that. not to the extent that DDNOS-1/DID requires, at least.




the requirement of trauma does not mean that "something worse" happened that you don't know about, nor does it mean that you'll feel or see immediately that what you experienced was "bad enough" to cause the development of DDNOS-1/DID. to develop DDNOS-1/DID, a child must experience trauma, and trauma is classified as ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY be trauma to a CHILD. people often forget that what is traumatic to a child is often not the same as what is traumatic to an adolescent or an adult, and they also forget that what was traumatic as a child might not seem "that bad" or traumatic to them later on in life.

trauma, for a child, can include anything from abuse (psychological, emotional, physical, sexual), bullying, witnessing guardians fight/argue, experiencing extreme stress, having responsibilities a child shouldn't have, witnessing a crime, witnessing an accident, losing a loved one, neglect, being left alone a lot (but not necessarily viewing it as "neglect"), unfulfilled needs (being cared for, being listened to, being understood, being accepted, being loved, being protected, feeling safe, etc), a family member's issues affecting aspects of you/your life (such as alcoholism, even if they aren't abusive or something due to it, it can still have an impact on a child), etc., etc., the list goes on with possibilities.




i know of one theory on here that suggests conditions such as "maladaptive daydreaming" or "fantasy prone personality" can help with the development, or even cause the development, of DDNOS-1/DID. i agree with this actually, but again, it has to happen IN CHILDHOOD. because it is only during childhood that the neurons can still be separated, and dissociation of any kind, through escaping or trying to cope with trauma, or perhaps due to maladaptive daydreaming, can be enough to cause the personality neurons to stay separated and not structure, and thus the development of alters/DDNOS-1/DID. because if a child has maladaptive daydreaming or fantasy prone personality, they may experience trauma through feeling alienated, through feeling as if they cannot connect to anyone, through feeling fear of the real world/real people, through the feeling of having a need to escape (aka dissociate), and that can be enough trauma to cause the development of DDNOS-1/DID in a child."




there are other theories, but they depend on your beliefs, mainly spiritually or religiously. some people believe that alters are reincarnated people that the "main person" has become aware of. some people believe that alters are of different realms or universes. some people believe that alters are spirits. some people believe that some of their alters are indeed parts of them, as DID/DDNOS-1 says, but that some of their alters are there by "choice", like a spirit guide, or something like that.


but in the sense of DID/DDNOS-1, yes, all alters/fragments are indeed parts of one and the same person/personality.





- cassie (age ?)

-- Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:08 pm --

oh and it's also why the original term for the condition, "Multiple Personality Disorder" was changed to "DID". it was discovered/realized that no one can have multiple personalities, and that it was not a personality disorder, it was a dissociative disorder, and dealt with separate identities/alters/parts of that person/personality.


identity is different from personality. i don't know how to explain it, but it is. this is how alters can have separate identities, but they do not have separate personalities. identity is what you create, what you identify yourself with, what you connect to, what you think "speaks" you, etc. personality is what is developed by neurons in your brain and is affected by experiences in life, the environment you're in, and goes through the developmental processes in childhood.

it's like... it's like the difference between a mask and a face. identity is like the mask, you can change it, you can choose to make it "fit" you, you can affect it through choice and conscious effort, etc.
personality is like the face, you can't take it off, you can't really change it that much (speaking in terms for the analogy), the development of the face wasn't really made by your choices, and how the face looks depends on outside circumstances (genes from family), just as the personality depends on outside circumstances such as environment, role models, experiences, etc.





- cassie (age ?)

ty Cassie that'z lotz of info!~ I get it logically. Maybe it'z just me being stubborn but all I think after reading it iz "Who sayz itz part of one?? Where'z the proof we're all part of one person?? How can u even test that???" but I guess there'z a reason they're the expertz.. I like ur analogy about personality..can u tell I am not a philosophical person? Ha my brain hurtz... Anywayz ty for explaining. [rinZU]

you're welcome!

when you get down to it, it's all about the information experts learned that deals with how the brain works, neurons, neuron development, personality development, etc.


*possible trigger warning*

but again, as i said, there are many other ideas/beliefs out there, it's just that in the terms of DID/DDNOS-1, you kinda have to go with the scientific stuff for the most part. and with all the testing, observing, cat-scans, brain study, etc., that scientists do, and all that they've learned about how our brain works and develops, it's kinda the type of thing where "neurons don't lie". but then, there's a reason that science and spiritual stuff isn't mixed. you can believe in different ideas for alters and such with spiritual and religious beliefs, while still also accepting that in scientific terms, the neurons stuff is the "correct" explanation. like i said, there are those who believe that some of their alters are indeed parts of them, and then some of their alters are spirits or reincarnated people or something. so there can be a mixture of the two beliefs/concepts. it all depends on what you believe as a person.


but as far as science goes, it's not really arguable. alters/parts/fragments are developed from separated "sides" of the personality that formed from separated neurons when the developmental processes were occurring (during childhood), and were disrupted (by trauma). this information wouldn't be known if it hadn't been discovered/learned, and that means that they had some way to prove it if they had some way to learn it, through brain studys, scans, neuron studys, etc. just as scientists are now able to tell us what part of the brain does what, and how the brain works/develops, they are able to tell us how our personality develops and the processes the neurons go through.


- cassie (age ?)

It all depends on how you define 'personality'

This is how I think about it... ** Trigger warning for development and stuff**
There are different parts to begin with, and normally, they integrate, 'melting together' (almost completely, never entirely, not even for 'normal' people, they keep sides to their personality).

When there's trauma, that gets interrupted and each part develops on it's own. In a sense, they're 'smaller' than when they're integrated. Not complete. If they integrated they would together be one and thus more. Like, when you take small pieces of ice, and let them melt them together in one glass, it's more than when you let them melt separately in different glasses. So that's for the 'completeness'.

As those parts developed separately, it's easy to understand why they can be so different, and feel not connected, not 'one person/personality'. Yet, they're still so much connected that it's also hard to say they're entirely different.

galaxies wrote:Where'z the proof we're all part of one person??

You're all in one body one brain, probably shared memories etc.

ty oaktree. Makez sense that ice thing u said.. Ur really good at analogiez too. Anywayz. It'z my little existential crisis right here.. erp.. leavez me feeling like an angsty teenager.. trying to stay zen about it.. mindFULL but empty.. mercy, acceptence then compassion.. trying for some infinite patience with all this.. no more fear..

The wayz it develops iz like..destruction that createz.. huh.. the Ellz would like that.

cassie, ty too. Science iz usually on good termz with me.. but it'z giving me harsh wordz right now.

[rinZU]

For a short moment I was like 'the ells? what have they to do with it??' (meaning I thought that was a different person/body/brain/whatever that defines one physical person), but then I realized I was talking to the same user account... about differences I hadn't realized that at all...
So, yes, you're definitely different! No questioning that!

Maybe it'z just me being stubborn but all I think after reading it iz "Who sayz itz part of one?? Where'z the proof we're all part of one person?? How can u even test that???

*trigger*
Haha yeah been there I still have no idea how anyone can test this though. But yeah, I think it's mostly a question of definition really. I mean, I have lots of identities. It's stands to reason that most people would be comfortable saying then - I have lots of personalities. Experts have stated that personality isn't the right word though so we say identities. I personally don't care what I call it. I'm me and that's enough. But yeah, I don't feel like we "belong together" necessarily, but when I do I'm fine with that (for instance, I don't feel like I belong with for instance Eliesa, but I have no problem with integrating with LM2). This is very spacey and weirdly written, sorry about that.

I like this quote a lot:

Caecandy wrote:

Una+ wrote:Recovery from DID is simply completing the integration that should have happened when we were little. Think of it is an isolated developmental delay.

I think this idea becomes a lot more complicated with the complexity of alters. Many of my fiancee's alters have been around for almost 20 years. They have been aware and experiencing reality through a different filter from one another for years. To put them back into one experience of reality would not be as natural as the process of integration from childhood. It would be creating a new person.

Perhaps the integration should've happened, but it did not. And pushing it now will not get back what was lost. It will not make her who she 'should've been'. It will make someone new. Because they have each developed into people separate from each other.

The alters are not the same people as when they were created. They've matured and changed in line with their personalities and their experiences. The memories they hold are not the same and they way they experience the world is not the same and due to this they have grown into very different people.

While I understand that many people do want integration, that isn't the goal of everyone and I don't think that it is any more natural than remaining multiple. The 'natural' state will never be reached because you cannot undo the years of separation.

Anyway - sorry for the spacey

Hi RinZU and all,

I don't think that this is a stupid question at all.

The reason MPD was changed to DID is precisely that people stopped thinking about multiples as "several people to a body" and instead adopted this "all parts of the same personality" model.

This can certainly be helpful in a therapy context, because multiples that go for therapy tend not to be exactly the most coordinated and peaceful systems. So giving them a framework to think with that enables them to think of the good of the whole rather than just the parts is probably a good idea.

But what is any of this after all except different models of looking at the same thing? As an analogy, when you talk about international politics, you can speak of countries as if they were entities "France does this, the US does that". That does not mean that "France" or "the US" are undivided wholes that just subsume all the individual people and groups that live in them under one name. It just depends on how you look at it.

Personally, i like to think of myself as a person, much as anyone. This surely has to do with the fact that while some in my system are used to thinking of themselves and being treated by others as human beings, I am not (because I simply haven't been out that much). I like being recognised for myself and distinguished from others in my system, even though we belong to the same whole. that does not make me (or anyone else) less of a person.

I got quite angry reading an article last night, it is here:

http://astraeasweb.net/plural/speaking.html

(very long and more triggers than a military compound)

The bit that really got me was this:

" If MPD is real - if it is really real - then an issue of civil rights is raised: shouldn't all adult alters not only be treated with respect by their therapists, but also be granted the right to vote (for there can be no question that their political opinions would often diverge widely)?

Yet alters must in general know perfectly well that they are not "people"; they are basically sane and well-informed, and capable of roughly normal reality testing. But if they are not people, what are they?"

So, maybe my reality testing is not what it was, but i don't know I'm not a person. Actually, I'm fairly sure I am. And yes, this is indeed a civil rights issue, among other things, because people like me (alters that is) are overwhelmingly the product of violent oppression. We are the ones whose voices tell of this oppression and thus we are made "not people" (just think for example what this means for the testimony of an alter in court, if a system goes after an abuser. How can someone be saying the truth if they don't exist in a legal sense?)

As so many times before, certain people are ritualistically excluded from humanity (we used to do this with other cultures or races, now it is other forms of consciousness). As so many times before "experts" claim to know who is human and who isn't. As so many times before, western science prescribes what is a legitimate and "healthy" way of being and people scramble to oblige.

And actually, the article has a point - functional multiple systems (the ones that manage to stay out of therapy because they are doing ok) tend to be some kind of communists, because it really is the only thing that works under the circumstances. No imagine they REALLY all got the vote....

I think as others here said, it all depends on the definition of "person" - but i really don't think we should leave this definition to the "experts" because they have proven plenty of times in the past they cannot tell a person from an inanimate object until it kicks them in the face.

Gabriel

Triggering and just rant-ish but yeah, I've been told on several occasions I am not human. I am a trauma memory - not even an alter, just a memory, by psychiatry. I say I am a human being and I deserve being treated with the same respect all other people are who are in-patient, multiple or not. I was instead not allowed food or time outside of the room because my presence is disruptive to the other people there. I am a memory (unfortunately for me I'm a memory that also requires food, sleep, hygiene and connections, just like everyone else ). This of course doesn't come from the experts, it comes from ignorant and disrespectful health workers (amongst others). Geesh, it's like I'm trying to convince people I'm a unicorn. I might have that inside me (who knows), but that's not the point I'm trying to convince anyone of at all I'm saying a person is a person is a person. My point though is, that it's up to us what we call ourselves and it is up to each and every one of us to be taken for what we are: human beings who deserve the same treatment as everyone else, even if that means as a whole and not as separate (as in with voting).

Still spacey. Gosh I hope that will stop soon Anyways, hope I made at least a tiny bit of sense.