Retarded Ejaculation - The Partner's Perspective/Discussion

brandt wrote:Men's total sexual identity is wrapped up in their penis and how it functions. They are not content to just "cuddle" and the personal intimacy of sex, so important to women, is way down on the list of importance for men. In a normally functiong couple, they both get what's important to them even though it is two completely different things.

The trouble is men don't really understand what part of sex is the most important to women and many just take it for granted that intercourse and orgasm is at the top of a woman's list just as it is his.

So when there is a dysfunction that interrupts or disrupts the intercourse/orgasm cycle men feel deeply that they are letting the woman down. This causes feelings of low self esteem, shame and anger (at himself)

I think men are getting sexually educated as to what is important to women at a younger age now. So I don't think that there is such a disconnect as there once was between the desires of men and women.

Personally : My husband despite his "advanced" age <g> seems to be an exception to this. Since he has always been this way, he coped but it didn't seem to bother him in terms of his own performance and feelings of self-anger. And, he loves to cuddle. He loves physical contact of all sorts.

His coping mechanism has been to have intercourse and then go off by himself to masturbate.

Apparently it wasn't until I came along and explained to him that this is not normal that the additional pressure and self-anger and guilt have been added.

I know this is difficult to believe because it is difficult to believe. But this is what he tells me. And I can only go on that.

Men, especially young men with RE almost all believe right off the bat that it is some kind of physical plumbing problem. They mistake the numb feeling that is part of the low arousal stages of RE as some kind of nerve problem or perhaps something to do with the fact they are circumcised or not.

This was one of the first straws that he grasped at.

Healthy men like sex so to have it turn into a stressful, unpleasant affair because they are psychologically not aroused enough is a totally bizarre and foreign concept to them.

I think it is only stressful to him now because of me.

And so they they go to urologists who poke, prod and test them only to find nothing wrong. They then start to blame the partner. Both these routes are dead end streets.

Thank goodness he's never blamed me or anyone that I am aware.

There is a reason they can not have an orgasm with their partner and it has nothing to do with anything physical either in their way their penis works or in the partner they are with. It is a psychological problem and to make matters worse it is a psychological problem that is usually happening subconsciously making the whole deal all that more more mystifying.

This is where we are now -- subconscious problem.

Long term partners of these men should realize first and foremost that this has nothing to do with them. It would have happened no matter who the man married.

Sometimes this kind of knowledge doesn't really help. The overwhelming sense is that I'm failing him. If only I were a porn star or this or that or.... But that's my problem to overcome. I hate the feeling of inadequacy and the accompanying sadness.

As far as how to react to it all I can suggest is the few things you can try that I have come across in my research but there is nothing from my own experience I can suggest because my own wife gave up trying to deal with this many years ago.

Again, I'm really sorry to hear about this. My husband has asked me on many occasions not to give up on him. The insecurity this brings to us both in different ways is pretty intense.

First make sure you know the cause. RE can be caused by physical problems although this is rare. So start by getting a physical check up.

Doesn't appear physical.

As far as porn and masturbation go this is a chicken or egg question. While heavy masturbation and porn use can cause RE, in most cases men turn to masturbation and porn because this is the only way they can have an orgasm. Sp try to find out what did come first- the porn/masturbation or the RE. If it was porn then get into therapy to deal with that. This kind of RE can be fixed.

Actually, I've read that this kind of RE can be among the most difficult to be fixed. And for him it was porn/masturbation first. As with most people, masturbation came well before sex with someone else. And porn has been there since he was very young.

If anxiety, depression and family of origin issues are the suspected cause you can do a few things.

This is my suspicion but apparently not his.

First, get into therapy. A good therapist will try to treat this by identifying the root causes of the anxiety and dealing with those. (Cognitive Therapy to teach the man to override anxious thoughts does not usually work unless root causes have been thoroughly explored first)

I don't think that CBT required uncovering of the root cause at all. If he has certain thoughts that need overriding, CBT deals with those thoughts in the context of the situation they arise and teach ways to override them. It does not care what causes the negative thoughts.

A new partner or unusual sexual situation can often override the anxiety but of course in a long term partnership this won't fly unless you are willing to open up the relationship and bring others in.

And as you know, going from partner-to-partner is not satisfying in the long run. And an open relationship is unworkable for most people. Further, it doesn't really solve the problem.

The next best thing is bypassing which uses video porn in the bedroom during sex. Success is based on the need to distract the man during intercourse so the subconscious anxiety will not interfere with his sexual functioning.

Does it really distract him or is he just more turned on by porn?

I think this is a great way to test the plumbing (eliminate a physical cause) but a lousy long-term solution.

Face to face contact during intercourse often interferes with the bypassing so the man behind or doggy position is recommended.

The times we've been successful have been missionary. So it doesn't apply for us.

Also, the woman should refrain from vocal shows of emotion, certainly at the beginning of trying the bypass technique, as this too can disrupt the bypassing experience.

I don't know what kind of vocal shows of emotion you mean. Pleasure?

Since just about anything can throw him off, sometimes I feel like I should just lie there and do nothing because the risk of messing him up is too great. But he doesn't like if I am not active and participatory. Quite the catch-22.

What's your source on women refraining from vocal shows of emotion? I'm curious to read what you've read.

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Speaking of treatments that work... I've read article-after-article online where doctors/therapists/writers talk claim that there are successful treatments, but I've never actually heard from a single "I was cured" person. Have you? Have you ever spoken to someone who was cured of RE by therapy of any sort? Everything seems to be second or third-hand and quite vague. I'm honestly beginning to distrust the idea that therapy can cure RE at all because of this.

WonderfulDay wrote:His coping mechanism has been to have intercourse and then go off by himself to masturbate.

Apparently it wasn't until I came along and explained to him that this is not normal that the additional pressure and self-anger and guilt have been added.

This is classic RE behavior and the main reason why the published numbers (percentages) of men with RE usually hover around 5%

Men simply do not report or seek help with this problem because most can still hold an erection long enough to please the partner and then take care of themselves later by masturbating alone. These guys are the "workhorses" and "heros" among RE sufferers. Many men simply give up when they realize there will be no orgasm or don't engage in partner sex in the first place.

If all men who suffered with RE or even most of them sought help the numbers would be much higher I'd say closer to 25% of men reporting sexual dysfunction, especially now with online porn and masturbation so common.

One way to tell if it was porn/masturbation first or RE first is to ask about his RE history. He he's suffered from it from day one with all or most partners it may not be the porn. On the other hand if day one was at age 25 and he spent age 15 to 25 masturbating to porn, then that's an exception.

If it's happened with everyone he's been with then that is another clue to it's origins. Short term "girlfriend" sexual relationships are usually not too effected by porn conditioning RE as most men cut down on porn use when they have a new partner. If he cut down on masturbation and porn use and then had little or no RE the problem is with the porn and masturbation.

But when it comes to RE it seems every statement has to have a caveat. Even if his porn use is causing the RE there is still family of origin and childhood trauma issues to consider in regards to why he is a heavy porn user and frequent masturbator.

As you can see Therapists have to dig very deep and peel back the layers. One thing is for sure RE and/or porn use are symptoms of something much deeper. Cognitive therapy will NOT work in these instances and any therapist who tries to fix these problems with CBT without investigating root causes is doomed to fail.

Have I ever heard of a man with severe RE who has been totally cured? Once.

It was during an experiment in treating RE done by RE specialist Dr Bernard Apfelbaum using bypassing or "counterbypassing" as he called it. But he did not use porn, but rather, a real live woman.... a "bodywork" assistant sometimes known as a sexual surrogate.

The RE patient was encouraged to say what ever came into his mind while he had sex with the surrogate. He felt free to do this as he had no relationship with her to worry about and so had no reason to care about her feelings being hurt. He spoke about how she wasn't turning him on and gave various reasons. Apparently, this was like unlocking a subconscious psycho sexual gate which allowed all his anxiety to flow out of him and he was cured.

This same principal is the reason why men with even severe RE have no sexual dysfunction at all with Prostitutes. There is no emotional involvement so there is no anxiety and no stress and therefore no RE.

If you want to read about DR Apfelbaum's groundbreaking work including his RE "counterbypassing experiments" it can be found here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... onijournal

here is part of a review of the book:

"In the chapter on retarded ejaculation (RE) Dr. Bernard Apfelbaum proposes a new approach to treating this particular male sexual problem. While traditional strategies often increase performance demands on the patient, Dr. Apfelbaum suggests focusing awareness on the patient's often fundamental lack of arousal and reducing emphasis on performance demands. He furthermore states that the actual incidence of RE in all likelihood far exceeds its clinical incidence. It is noteworthy that questions about RE are amongst the most frequent concerns which men and women ask sexual health experts at www.SexualHealth.com (as recently presented by Tepper & Owens at the Female Sexual Function Forum in Boston, 2000, and at the AASECT conference in San Francisco, 2001). This chapter is interesting and the alternative approach is refreshing."

I agree with the above post. However, I have been with many prostitutes, and the problem is exactly the same for me even when I'm with prostitutes, unfortunately. Maybe I have some kind of anxiety which is not a simple novelty-vs.-boredom switch, but something more pervasive. Or, maybe I get distracted during intercourse. Foreplay, as I've written previously, is ALWAYS extremely arousing to me, no matter which girl I'm with. But as soon as intercourse starts, I get distracted from this arousal, and the experience loses its eroticism somehow.

I don't mean to sound as if I giving blanket statements. This is something you simply can't do with RE because it is so complicated and effects different men in different ways.

But without always qualifying my statements there is no doubt I run that risk. So just to clarify. When I speak of a certain thing happening...for instance men with severe RE not having the problem with prostitutes, I am simply talking about a majority in this case a small majority. What I do try to do though is, if something is rare or only a minority of men experience it, I always try to make that clear.

Global, non situational RE which is what you have, is not as common but is certainly not that rare either. And when you speak of being aroused normally in foreplay and then having the situation deteriorate during intercourse, this happens to almost all men with RE and it often happens during oral sex too.

Arousal is fickle and neither a continuous line or a sharp curve upwards. Two things can happen during foreplay. One, you are aroused enough for an orgasm but as soon as you do anything to actually achieve one arousal levels drop, often subconsciously. And two, you only think you are aroused enough but in fact you aren't. This second one is very common in men who's RE is caused by masturbation and porn conditioning.

I've read of this study but I'm not sure I want to read the entire thing. It certainly isn't an encouraging thing to consider that my husband needs to let loose his anger at me during sex... which btw, he claims he doesn't have (anger). And going to a surrogate, well, no.

Has Ap... however you spell his name (sorry, too lazy to look) published any more work on this and has he had _more_ success with this therapy? If it were so groundbreaking and repeatable, why isn't it the recommended approach used by many, many therapists?

I don't think DR. A was actually trying to cure this RE man in that experiement. I think what he was trying to do was prove that RE is the result of bottled up sexual anxiety and anger (at himself) a fatal combination during intercourse. The doctor knew that even if the treatment did work, it would have to be further adapted for married men.

I remember when I first read about the experiment years ago. I got very excited by the concept. I immediately understood why it worked so well.

About 5 years ago I wrote to the doctor in Berkley and to my amazement got back a lengthy reply which sadly was lost when my hard drive was damaged during an electrical storm a short time later. But if I remember correctly he said he had not gone on to try this counterbypassing technique with couples. Although he didn't say so, I suspect that, unlike the professionally trained surrogate, the partners of RE men would be too badly hurt if the men were brutally honest with them during intercourse.

But also keep in mind that he would only be speaking from the point of view of an angry, sad, shamed and sexually anxious person.... so much of what he would say might very well be true only in his own mind. And like I said in another post, he would be saying roughly the same things to any woman he was with. I think if a woman could have this explained to her, be trained to accept the negative experience like the Surrogate was, then Apfelbaum's Counterbypassing technique may very well work with couples.

As a matter of fact I think it would be easier to teach a woman how to deal with the criticism then it would be to get an already anxious and fearful man to speak his mind during intercourse with his wife or girlfriend despite the almost miraculous effect it had on DR A's patient who's sudden sexual arousal was like nothing he had ever felt before.

brandt wrote:I remember when I first read about the experiment years ago. I got very excited by the concept. Imagine being able to say exactly how you feel with a partner, that she doesn't turn you on.... without fear of abandonment. Not having to always put her first, not having to always pretend that you are enjoying yourself and basically tell her all the things that you feel are wrong with her as far as personality, looks, and sexual techniques goes is an amazing, if unrealistic concept. I immediately understood why it worked so well.

I don't understand why it worked. If that's the way the guy really feels, why is he with this person or any person for that matter? How can he fear being abandoned by someone he has all of these negative feelings about? Why is he having sex if he doesn't really enjoy it? Why deceive a partner like that? I think it is really wrong and mean, much meaner than telling it like it is.

I hope to God that this idea isn't representative of all men with RE.

<snip>

.... Although he didn't say so, I suspect that, unlike the professionally trained surrogate, the partners of RE men would be too badly hurt if the men were brutally honest with them during intercourse.

I don't know how it couldn't do damage.

But also keep in mind that he would only be speaking from the point of view of an angry, sad, shamed and sexually anxious person.... so much of what he would say might very well be true only in his own mind.

Your partner's take on reality kind of means a lot to a gal. So if it is true in his mind, it is true enough to matter.

And like I said in another post, he would be saying roughly the same things to any woman he was with. I think if a woman could have this explained to her, be trained to accept the negative experience like the Surrogate was, then Apfelbaum's Counterbypassing technique may very well work with couples.

I simply can't see how a partner can be trained to accept the negative experience without it having consequences down the road. Unlike the surrogate, she doesn't get to walk away from the situation.

But I do wonder how this is any different than a man who blames their partner for their dysfunction and why that blame doesn't work in the same way as this experiment.

As a matter of fact I think it would be easier to teach a woman how to deal with the criticism then it would be to get an already anxious and fearful man to speak his mind during intercourse with his wife or girlfriend despite the almost miraculous effect it had on DR A's patient who's sudden sexual arousal was like nothing he had ever felt before.

How do you feel about teaching pigs to fly?

Was there anything in the study about the subject's interest in kinky sex or that there was a propensity for him to find being abusive a turn-on? Also, what was the follow-up? Did he have normal sex with one or more partners for the next 5 years? Or did he have to berate his partner to get turned on?

I've been reading through these posts. It is interesting to see what others have to say about this issue. My partner had RE for many years. He has recently overcome it. I pretty much consider it a miracle that this finally happened. It only happened after he went for therapy, completely cut out the porn, and really cut down on masturbating. The impression I've gotten out of all of this is that this is the guys problem, not the partners. The partner can be supportive etc.. but it is up to the guy to do the hard work of fixing it.

"As a matter of fact I think it would be easier to teach a woman how to deal with the criticism then it would be to get an already anxious and fearful man to speak his mind during intercourse"

This is a statement I found very interesting. I am not sure, Brandt, you are entirely correct. I don't think there is much consideration for the womans feelings in this approach. And, how would the man feel if she was completely honest with him? He'd probably fall into a heap.. since he is already anxious and fearful. I can see why this is easier though, it is easier to criticise someone than face ones own inadequacies.

Everything is so much more complex than is appears on the surface. My partner was addicted to porn for many years before i found out about his addiction. Prior to me finding out he completely blamed me for his RE. He knew why he had the RE but since i didn't know. The hurt I feel from this is incredible. He may be 'cured' of his RE but our relationship is in tatters. I find it so difficult to trust him now. His RE was very closely tied to feeling of shame around sex taught to him when he was growing up.

He told me during those years of decit that I was not sexual enough.. I didn't want to do the kinky stuff, I wasn't good enough etc etc. After a while I began to believe it. If he had been honest with himself, and maybe even honest with me, our relationship wouldn't be in the tatters it is today. He found it so easy to criticise me because it meant that he never had to look at his own anxieties and fears.

WonderfulDay wrote:I don't understand why it worked. If that's the way the guy really feels, why is he with this person or any person for that matter? How can he fear being abandoned by someone he has all of these negative feelings about? Why is he having sex if he doesn't really enjoy it? Why deceive a partner like that? I think it is really wrong and mean, much meaner than telling it like it is.

I hope to God that this idea isn't representative of all men with RE.

No no. I think you took it too literally. This was simply an example of what a man may say. Everyone's different. The important point here is that whatever it is, it has been kept bottled up inside him. He may not even have ever sorted it out in conscious thought. But allowing him to "complain" is an anxiety release valve. It doesn't matter what he says so much as the fact he feels free to say it. It's like releasing the tension on a wound up spring.

With the anxiety purged the RE dissapears and normal sexual functioning returns. It is the PROCESS and the RESULTS that are important here. They give us insight into the nature of sexual anxiety and RE.

Most men with RE are sexual "givers" and "pleasers" perhaps because they are trying to make for the shame of the sexual dysfunction. Look at your husband. He can't have what to a man is the most important aspect of sex, the orgasm, but he still had sex with you anyway. This is typical.

But after years of this, the resentment of always being the giver and never the taker (because he can't) can build up. And then add to that the root cause of the anxiety and fear of intimacy and top it off with all the frustration and anger about his not being sexually "normal" and you have an enormous amount of stress and anxiety built up.

To be able to let it all go is such a relief...... almost better than the orgasm it leads to.

This same technique, although without the sexual element, is used in marital therapy. The partners are given permission to say anything they want about the other. Seems counterintuitive and God knows, when I was in therapy with my wife I couldn't bring myself to do it. But those who do follow the therapists instructions
have had good success. Couples report that after treatment their marital bond is stronger than ever before.

However, there has to be a real willingness to do what it takes to save the marriage for this technique to work.

brandt wrote:

WonderfulDay wrote:I don't understand why it worked. If that's the way the guy really feels, why is he with this person or any person for that matter? How can he fear being abandoned by someone he has all of these negative feelings about? Why is he having sex if he doesn't really enjoy it? Why deceive a partner like that? I think it is really wrong and mean, much meaner than telling it like it is.

I hope to God that this idea isn't representative of all men with RE.

No no. I think you took it too literally. This was simply an example of what a man may say. Everyone's different. The important point here is that whatever it is, it has been kept bottled up inside him. He may not even have ever sorted it out in conscious thought. But allowing him to "complain" is an anxiety release valve. It doesn't matter what he says so much as the fact he feels free to say it. It's like releasing the tension on a wound up spring.

What is something that he might say that wouldn't be negative and complaining that would provide a release then? I'd love to read some of what some RE guys would love to say to their partners during sex but are afraid to say. This is an anonymous forum. There should be no fear here.

<snip> Most men with RE are sexual "givers" and "pleasers" perhaps because they are trying to make for the shame of the sexual dysfunction. Look at your husband. He can't have what to a man is the most important aspect of sex, the orgasm, but he still had sex with you anyway. This is typical.

But after years of this, the resentment of always being the giver and never the taker (because he can't) can build up. And then add to that the root cause of the anxiety and fear of intimacy and top it off with all the frustration and anger about his not being sexually "normal" and you have an enormous amount of stress and anxiety built up.

Again, if he's doing it just to please me but he's not into it himself, it is deceptive and wrong. And then to become resentful of a behavior that he chose and a situation that he created is just another twisted view of reality.

I have to say that you aren't making me feel much better about this situation.

If a man with RE doesn't want to have sex because he can't cum, he should stop having sex and stop dragging partners into this very emotionally difficult situation. It isn't fair.

Like Wife 2 states, there are so many lies involved that it undermines the relationship. Abandonment is just as likely to occur from a SO becoming sick and tired of feeling that their partner can do nothing but lie and cover up and blame. Trust is the basis for a relationship.

To be able to let it all go is such a relief...... almost better than the orgasm it leads to.

Yeah, I am sure. But wouldn't it be better not to get caught up in the stupidity of lying and being untrue to everyone than to need this kind of relief?

This same technique, although without the sexual element, is used in marital therapy. The partners are given permission to say anything they want about the other. Seems counterintuitive and God knows, when I was in therapy with my wife I couldn't bring myself to do it. But those who do follow the therapists instructions
have had good success. Couples report that after treatment their marital bond is stronger than ever before.

However, there has to be a real willingness to do what it takes to save the marriage for this technique to work.

If the saying everything involves telling you that the person you married hasn't been sincere or honest about the most intimate part of the marriage it might not have such great results.

I'll state it simply : You cannot please a partner by lying to them. You cannot keep a partner by lying to them.