Family vs Everyone else

Dalloway wrote:

You can even it out with things like exercise and magnesium

Great example and a good hint!
When I went to professionals, first thing they did was checking my blood values. All the symptomatic can be caused by deficiencies of trace elements.

I think by groping about in the internet, pseudo-diagnosing around like a derp, you're doing more harm than good.

Like I said most tests offered for magnesium don't tend to give proper diagnosis. It's hard to find doctors who will do the proper type of testing needed (many tests are only available in certain areas.) I did talk to a doctor before taking it (they don't really even bother in my area, so after telling him my symptoms he told me to take a low dose, see if it stopped the twitching issue I was having and if so increase as needed), and again like I said, I wasn't taking it initially for my mental health. I'd say best thing to do is ask a doctor, then go based off that info if possible. I only brought it up as cortisol isn't something typically mentioned, but yes wedmd or whatever alone isn't the way to go.

Most diseases are going to be caused by an interaction between the environment and genetics. However some diseases are much easier to predict than other diseases. For instance, if you have a gene for Huntington's disease, then you're pretty much guaranteed to get the disease if you live long enough. Other disorders like schizophrenia and SPD are probably less predictable through genetics, but genes are still strongly implicated. So basically, if you carry certain genes than you'll be more likely to become SPD or schizophrenic. But for the PD or schizophrenia to "happen" you'll still need to encounter certain stresses during your lifespan, particularly during childhood and brain development throughout adolescence.

naps wrote:

Leroythelost wrote:I feel like I don't meaningfully understand the difference between an acquaintance, a friend and a good friend as the strength of my bond with a certain person is never clearly understood.

Sometimes I wonder if schizoids are literally wired differently in their brain so that they are incapable of understanding (much less comfortably participate in) the rules of social interaction.

I think it's something like that. The (dopamine) nigrostriatal pathway of schizophrenics tends to be underactive for various reasons and probably is the reason that they tend to be apathetic as we are. Another neurotransmitter, oxytocin, is also implicated. Since SPD is a an endophenotype/small piece of schizophrenia, it's probably the same for SPD. Here's a short article about social reward:
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/ ... 00022/full
It might be a bit esoteric because it's not written for the general public. An alternative hypothesis is that schizophrenics do feel rewarded for having social interactions, but they feel less of an urge to engage in it.

I think Mg supplements could probably help. But exercise improves mental function in about every way imaginable. I don't think that there are many drugs/psychotreatments/supplements that can outdo exercise in that regard.

To the OP's point though, I kind of drifted away from my family after my mid twenties. Since I was becoming less dependent on them, I talked with them less and less as time went on. Definitions of diseases in the DSM are always going to be a bit arbitrary. For instance if you're 17 years and 364 days old, then you're a minor. Once that extra day goes by, you suddenly become an adult (at 18 years old, in the US anyways). There's not *really* a difference between 17y and 364d versus 18y and 0d old, but there's a gradual process of becoming an adult. But for legal/diagnostic purposes, they have to define an objective definition of being an adult or SPD. I guess my point is that it's possible that your closeness to your family is just some individual variability factor... even though the DSM symptoms say that SPDs normally don't have family ties. So I wouldn't rule out SPD...even though a psychiatrist might rule it out in order to maintain the objective definition. I'm not sure how helpful that is. I think it's also possible that you'll have a clearer picture of your AvPD/SPD as you enter your late 20s.

Dalloway wrote:

I just don't understand because on criteria for StPD especially it states that people are close with immediate family or very long time known close friends

Where does it say that?

schizotypal
ICD-10, 3. Poor rapport with others and a tendency to withdraw socially
DSM5, A.2.b. Intimacy: Marked impairments in developing close relationships, associated with mistrust and anxiety

schizoid
DSM5, 1. neither wants nor likes close relationships, COUNTING being part of a family
ICD-10, 8. very few, if any, close friends or personal relationship, and lack of desire for such

I think your being quite rude, I not just some "kewl" kid on the internet I am a young adult who has been suffering with a mental illness that has negatively impacted my life since childhood. I am a man who is confused as they have the symptoms of certain disorders but seems like people don't relate while having said disorders. I am a man who just wants to understand medically what is up with me.

plus from this website: https://psychcentral.com/disorders/schi ... -symptoms/
it states a symptom for schizoid personality disorder is "Lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives". I have seen this symptom a few times for StPD and AvPD and my interpretation of it was the person in question doesn't present any or most of the symptoms with the people he grew up with (immediate family) so they are fine with them and function normally there, but everywhere else is where they display the symptoms, which is my case. It's the same structure as selective mutism, as they are not mute with family.

I'm very glad you found your way to a writing style free of juvenile abbreviations.

The very first bullet point of the list in your link, which is also in my post, should provide you with an answer.

- possibly close to first-degree relatives – doesn't enjoy close relationships -

Translation: the close relationships the schizoid maybe has, aren't source of enjoyment.

If you'd like to trouble the search function you'll find that the forced cohabitation with the family oftentimes is the biggest source of stress for people in this forum; next to the very reason for their symptoms I might add.
So it's the opposite of an environment free of anxiety or cautiousness, which isn't especially hidden or encrypted when you read the diagnostic manual.

You're trying to interpret material that is over your head. If you honestly want to change, and make sense of it, use another head, a paid one with a degree. There is nothing more I want to add.

Like I said most tests offered for magnesium don't tend to give proper diagnosis...

Yah, I stretched that quite a bit. My point was it's a waste of energy for everybody involved when you spoon-feed basics to people that 'discovered their pd online' when they're possibly just in need of an iron supplement.

I think your symptoms make sense for AvPD. If you have a level of trust with people you know well, like family members, maybe you don't have that fear/anxiety/sense of inadequacy with them.

I know that personally, I feel strange around everyone, family inclusive -- not inadequate, but just very different with little in common, very unfamiliar... not that I don't know them, but that they don't understand me and I don't understand them necessarily.

Leroythelost wrote:

Dalloway wrote:

I just don't understand... for such

I think your being quite rude, .

I agree it's rude Leroythelost, I think you handled this situation well & maturely.

Leroythelost, regarding your question of 'family vs everyone else'..it's normal for everyone to have a a public persona and in contrast to be more relaxed in the privacy of your own home. I'm avoidant so my public persona is a very nervous, anxious one. When I'm out socialising I'm stressed & my mh symptoms can spike due to that stress..I could spike with anger/confrontation, cptsd flashback, extreme reserve/disgust, extreme nervousness/clumsiness but whatever it is, my point is that the spike is due to the external stressor of being out in public socialising.

My hunch is that you may feel more relaxed at home so your mh symptoms are lower there - it's just a hunch, I don't know you & am not an expert so feel free to ignore it. When I'm at home I still have my internal mh problems going..I'm still v anxious even at rest and prone to dissociation (chronic maladaptive daydreaming) but there are a lot less external stressors at home. My point is that rather than analysing yourself mainly in regard to your strong attachment to family members & lack of attachment to people outside of your family, you may like to also consider internal & external stressors as triggers for your mh symptoms.

Many Av folk avoid public life & socialising there as much as possible which means that their relationships are only with the family members they live with. For example, I met an Av woman who was my age (I'm middle-aged) but she'd spent her adult life staying at home with her mother & had never worked or had any life outside of her home, so the only relationship she had was with her mother. I'm Av too but had to flee my family home when I was 18 because my mother was highly abusive, so I spent my adult life going to uni and working jobs. So I had relationships w flatmates and work colleagues, eventually some friendships & romantic relationships.

My mh probs were caused by chronic early life trauma from my primary care-giver (primarily my mother, unfortunately) so I agree w others on the thread that it was helpful to understand my past & why my personality is how it is today, rather than to find an exact fit with a particular dsmv lable. That said, I appreciate a lot of folk find dsmv dx's helpful, even critical, to recovery. The self-help & research I find most helpful is early-life trauma based.. cptsd, betrayal-trauma etc.

It may be helpful to get assessed by a trained professional as in my experience self-dx can be tricky, confusing & alienating. Is it Av that holds you back from seeking a professional opinion? Alternatively, one thing I found helpful was to go to support groups irl to meet & observe peers with different mh issues. Sometimes I couldn't relate to a peer or see any of myself in them, so I'd conclude I didn't share the same dx as them. Other times I'd relate strongly to a peer so much it was like watching myself, so I figured I shared some dx traits with them. I had to overcome my Av enough to attend support irls gps and have enough anxiety-management skills to cope with sitting in the irl support group, so that took time. It was very stressful & triggery but I developed insights about myself and got some great tips from some of the peers who I admired.

I wouldn't have developed insights into my mh dx & personality traits purely using internet research & online support gps. I had to overcome my Av enuf to try therapy irl, go to irl support groups etc and then put all the irl and online info together. It took time (years) and a lot trial and error.

Thank you Skittersih for replying, and I am been to like 4 GPs and none of them referred me to a specialist which is very annoying. I have even had 6 sessions of counselling at my uni's centre for well being, so I have gone out of my way to get help. I am going to try to speak to a GP again but this time I will mention my lack of emotional engagement with non first degree relatives, maybe now they will realise I am not joking and I need help now to function.

-- Sat May 06, 2017 1:40 pm --

Dalloway I said I have watered down schizoid PD not the full thing. There is type of behaviour called avoidiant-schizoid behaviour where people have symptoms from both PD's but a lot of them actually want friendships and bonds even though they can't feel them a lot of the time. This is want I relate to the most.

I'm getting the impression that the biggest issue is your quality of life and how to improve it - not whether you're schizoid, avoidant, or both. Some of Dalloway's comments are definitely abrasive, but I think they make a good point that it doesn't do much good to start stamping labels on it and diagnosing yourself. I think we've all been slow to realize that you were concerned more about your well-being because most of the posters and SPDs (like myself) here ask questions like that without caring too much about how to change.

That said, it should really be a priority to get a psych referral...without that your options are pretty limited at this point. Other than diet and exercise, which could still do a lot for you. Try to got a doc that specializes in Cognitive Behavioral Therapies, basically those therapies are pretty much the go-to treatment for anxiety and depression. Psychiatrists (that can also prescribe medication) are also best because you might need anti-depressants or buspar or something to put you on an even keel again. Even if it's just temporary while you do CBT. They'll help teach you better habits and give you insight on how to think about your current problems. Talk therapy is better than medication, but the most successful patients do both.

As counter-intuitive as it may sound, I don't think it does you any good to start diagnosing yourself or diving into your past traumas that may, or may not, have made you this way. The more important issue is what you should be doing in the "here and now". Maybe past trauma did this to you, maybe genetics did this to you. The biggest issue is how to deal with it right now. I'm not sure why your GPs aren't giving you referrals... maybe it sounds like you have a question about diagnostic criteria to them and they aren't realizing that you want counseling or CBT. It's super important you tell them you have specific problems like depression/anxiety/anhedonia. Be prepared to discuss how it impairs you. If you ask about whether you're SPD or avoidant they're more likely to shrug their shoulders, because they're not realizing that you're in pain. It may sound more like an intellectual or philosophical question to them. Maybe it's something else, but I have no other idea.

Thank you RedFox for your insight

I agree completely with everything RedFox said. Cognitive behavior therapy has helped others and myself a lot, and from what I understand it tends to be known as the best. Not seeking a professional will only make things worse (that's what I did initially, and I regret it). I didn't research as much as I would delve into past trauma thinking I'd somehow get over it, and instead it made me more paranoid of how crazy I might be in the moment. After getting perspective from a professional I've come to recognize a lot of what actually happened, see reasons behind the flaws of people I loathed, and even forgiven them. There were even some things I hadn't thought of as being something that affected me until I was pointed out that they possibly shaped my thinking as well. I know you've seen people, but shouldn't wait on the GP and counselors. I'm sorry they seem to have yanked you around, and I can see why you wanted to take it into your own hands to try and move forward. Good news though is now that you know about CBT, you can hopefully actually get going forward!

I also think it would behoove everyone to remember not to be insulting to people seeking mental health help. Yes, it's a bad idea to self-diagnose, but making them feel like this is one more place that doesn't want to help them understand what they need is actually in a lot of ways worse...especially with something like AvPD. I'm glad Leroythelost and Skitterish explained it well. Avoidants tend to not be able to ignore how others treat them due to genetics and trauma. They can't shut off/numb their emotions and it's a constant struggle that they can't simple get over. Though schizoids tend to not care about what people think due to being calloused from similar reasons that doesn't mean they can't be cordial and need to be insulting to people while they are hurting.