Isolation and underlying conditions

This is a long post, but you can skip to the last paragraph if you don't feel like reading it all.

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Some recent posts/discussions, and also a mostly unrelated video that I just watched (especially how he highlights the thought that "life will always welcome you back" -- it's a long video though, and it's not fun to watch, I'm just linking it here for anyone who might be curious about it), got me thinking about this.

I have chosen to "give up on life", but while it is a definite choice, it's not a definitive one, and it's not supposed to ever be. I might live like this for the rest of my life, which is not unlikely, but this open-endedness makes a world of difference. I don't feel the obligation to "rejoin life" anymore, but wondering about possibilities out there is still part of the way I think. But when the guy in the video says that "life will always welcome you back", it just doesn't ring true to me. Or for me at least. It's not hard to believe that it can be true for "other people". So what separates me from them?

And the answer is just not SPD. Whether I have it or not (it all hinges on technicalities that I'm sure no two professionals would agree on, exactly because it's a secondary condition), it's just not what separates me from other people. The reason why "life probably won't welcome me back" is because it's not even up to other people or even myself. I have neurological limitations that prevent me from having a regular job, or a social life of any kind involving more than a couple of people at any given point in time. These limitations can't be measured or detected objectively by current medicine (I've had my brain scanned and the test results turned out normal), but they're not psychological either.

It's hard to explain what defines that line, but there is a line. One easy example is my total lack of stereoscopic vision: it's an entirely neurological thing, it's not objectively detectable, and it's obviously not psychological. All my mental health and lifestyle issues and limitations ultimately boil down to sensory issues. Or "information processing" in general. I just can't process all that has to be processed for a normal kind of life. Of course, there's always ramifications or overlapping issues (namely ADHD, which gets a little blurrier with the psychological side), and compounding issues (like a history of invalidating parenting and other negative life experiences, which are totally psychological). But still.

I can do (or at least try) certain things to make these issues a little less limiting, but it's all palliative. No amount of therapy or willpower or self-discipline could ever change their permanent nature. So, for better or worse, I've learned over time to focus on how I experience and interpret life, instead of how I actually live it. I try not to neglect the latter, but it's still only a means to an end. And, so far, isolation with virtually no social pressure (from the outside or, more important, from the inside) has proven to be the one workable scenario for the long run. Or else my health goes down the drain, both physical and mental.

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In short, regardless if my diagnosed SPD does technically count as actual SPD or not, it's there because of something else, and it's not something psychological. Or partly it is, but if it weren't SPD, it would have been something not entirely different. Just a different type of isolation, but to a similar degree. I'm sure that this is the case for other people here. I wonder how many, and I wonder if it's something that they're well aware of, or if it's something that they hadn't really thought about until now or until recently.

Eh?

Oh well, I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought.

zeno wrote:These limitations can't be measured or detected objectively by current medicine (I've had my brain scanned and the test results turned out normal), but they're not psychological either.

So, it's a question of belief; you're convinced of something that currently can't be proven.

zeno wrote:No amount of therapy or willpower or self-discipline could ever change their permanent nature.

There is really no basis to know that. Other than belief, with a hint of self-pity.

zeno wrote:In short, regardless if my diagnosed SPD does technically count as actual SPD or not, it's there because of something else, and it's not something psychological. Or partly it is, but if it weren't SPD, it would have been something not entirely different. Just a different type of isolation, but to a similar degree.

You're looking for people that believe in an objectively undetectable reason for spd/something similar?
The indicators are:
- a conviction of being “apart from life” and
- a conviction of unverifiable limitations.

Did I miss something else?
There is not much to work with; the things that are there appear spurious at best.

“A couple of people at any given point in time” isn't a social life? Is a couple literally two in this case? So, if I meet with two people, it's not considered a social life. What's the threshold? Who made the definition up? I mean, this is clearly nonsense, right? Your post is littered with stuff like that.

Okay, I see where you're coming from (not that I don't think you're condescending, which I suspect you already know you are). The thing is I've been diagnosed with both ADHD and, particularly, autism spectrum disorder, based on self-report and on an interview with my parents about my childhood. Now that's the tricky issue. Because, looking from a clinical perspective, it's clearly there and has always been, whatever "it" is. I wasn't diagnosed as a kid because I used to get good grades, but I was never a normal kid. But it's not consistent with Asperger's (and it isn't fully explained by ADHD either). So it's just a catch-all that pretty much only says what I described: "It can't be objectively measured yet, but it's not psychological either".

I didn't want to shoehorn the topic into the more specific topic of "autism spectrum", because that's pretty much useless to me. I was trying to frame it as "an underlying condition of some other nature, but probably still an invisible one" (which might as well be more physical, like chronic pain for example). But then again I'm not surprised that it all sounds very confusing and nonsensical. In the end that's my struggle with relatedness and communication in general. It's not easy to find common ground other than the weather. Not for more than a moment at least, which leads me to the next point:

Dalloway wrote:“A couple of people at any given point in time” isn't a social life?

It is. And as far as I'm concerned it's ideal. But how do you get to "a couple of people" without going through "a whole lot more than a couple"? The weather doesn't help much with that, and group interaction tends to be very important where I come from.

I would be surprised if there are many people on the autism spectrum that would pick up condescension from my post.

I think when it comes to your first post it's good you're articulating these impressions. For that to have any worth I'm trying to respond as honest as I can. I listed the indicators which you surely agree are spurious, when you try to look from the outside.

I read a 646 words post and asked if there is anything more than “apart from life” and “unverifiable limitation”, while being convinced I missed something. It appears I didn't. I guess it's an “you have to be affected to get it” kinda thing.

I won't go into when something is “clinically there” it is “verifiable”.
But fear not, when it comes to you, no more “condescension” from me and I'll make way for you to work with other responses.

Dalloway wrote:I would be surprised if there are many people on the autism spectrum that would pick up condescension from my post.

You haven't been to WrongPlanet, have you?

Are you saying your physical/developmental limitations have more to do with your need for isolation than your supposed psychological difficulties, which you attribute solely to your physical limitations?

I'm going to need some cocaine to tackle this one. Or at least 500 mg. caffeine, which is out of the question, so I will attempt to break it down.

I have chosen to "give up on life"

Do you mean in a social respect? Or personal? You're not interested in growing or learning or any kind of intake whatsoever? Then why did you post this? Wouldn't voluntarily isolation preclude you from query? I'm not making fun or being snarky. I'm trying to understand. Perhaps I should watch the video. But that would require me to get up and turn on my speakers and currently there is a 19 lb. cat on my lap with his back feet nestled perilously close to my scrotum. I'm staying put.

But when the guy in the video says that "life will always welcome you back", it just doesn't ring true to me.

The further you stray, the harder it is to re-engage. I suppose for a lot of people there is a point where you can stray too far and re-intregation cannot occur without some kind of loss or distortion. But it sounds like this is part of your root problem.

All my mental health and lifestyle issues and limitations ultimately boil down to sensory issues. Or "information processing" in general. I just can't process all that has to be processed for a normal kind of life.

That's a bold statement (the first sentence). But not entirely unforeseeable. Still, I think you're over-generalizing. What would you consider a normal kind of life? The minute you label your limitations as handicaps, you're in trouble. You never struck me as the kind of person who would even be interested in a "normal life".

I can do (or at least try) certain things to make these issues a little less limiting, but it's all palliative. No amount of therapy or willpower or self-discipline could ever change their permanent nature. So, for better or worse, I've learned over time to focus on how I experience and interpret life, instead of how I actually live it.

Okay. But I would consider focusing on how you interpret and experience life to be still living it. As long as you can think, you're still living.

And, so far, isolation with virtually no social pressure (from the outside or, more important, from the inside) has proven to be the one workable scenario for the long run. Or else my health goes down the drain, both physical and mental.

I'm tempted to say "well then, there's your answer." Can it be that simple? Where is the shame in isolation? I know I may have expressed concern over my own isolation in previous posts, but I've never questioned it. And are you really that isolated? How can you be as isolated as I suspect you see yourself as if you're reading my post now? Or trading barbs with Dalloway?

I sense self-pity too, but that's part of why we're all here, isn't it? Besides, I excel in self-pity, even when it's not overt. There's nothing wrong with getting exasperated over being unable to pinpoint your disfunction on any concrete cause. I would say whether or not you have SPD is irrelevant. In quandaries like this, any PD is irrelevant because I believe they are too vague a concept to hang your identity on. Or blame your problems on.

I don't know how to summarize this except to say "do the best you can", which sounds like some generic fortune cookie pedestrian post-1970's catchphrase. But when you attach it to a need for better understanding of yourself, things can get complicated if you don't know what you're working with.

Did I come close at all? Perhaps an embellishment of "Giving on life" would be in order because I think I understand the concept but your choice of wording may be a bit askew.

naps wrote:Are you saying your physical/developmental limitations have more to do with your need for isolation than your supposed psychological difficulties, which you attribute solely to your physical limitations?

Almost that. The first part, yes, that's exactly it. The second part, no, not really. I mean that whatever my psychological issues may be, they do complicate things, but they can be either resolved or circumvented. I do try to push boundaries, but if I'm not careful how I go about it, it very easily ends up in burnout rather than really "enriching" anything. There's this very fine line between "waiting for the perfect opportunity that will never happen" and just downright "being realistic and getting used to it as it is".

I have chosen to "give up on life"

Do you mean in a social respect? Or personal? You're not interested in growing or learning or any kind of intake whatsoever? Then why did you post this? Wouldn't voluntarily isolation preclude you from query? I'm not making fun or being snarky. I'm trying to understand.

Yeah, bad phrasing. It's hard put to things into context when there's all this nuclear fusion going on in my head and I'm looking for some kind of clarity.

I mean giving up on pursuing an everyday life where I'm part of something bigger than myself, no matter the nature of it (work, social, personal). I think that sums it up nicely. So another (more abstract) way to put it would be that "I have given up on external life", or maybe you could say "objective life" (which was arguably never my real focus, by my very nature).

But I do wish I had the freedom to meander through other lands (literally and metaphorically -- long shot, but you might remember from older posts that I've pursued a second nationality for that purpose) without having to prepare for severe impacts on my health.

The further you stray, the harder it is to re-engage. I suppose for a lot of people there is a point where you can stray too far and re-intregation cannot occur without some kind of loss or distortion.

Yes, I guess so.

But it sounds like this is part of your root problem.

I'm not sure what you mean here though ("the root" in what way, and of what exact problem). In this regard, I think for me the problem isn't so much that I've crossed some threshold to where I am now, as it is that I never really crossed the threshold to the other side.

It's been a struggle in recent years, but today I feel like it's actually easier than ever to possibly cross that threshold to the other side, because these things (that aren't new at all) have become the biggest of my problems. I've never had this before. So, at least as it appears to me, crossing that threshold isn't so much a matter of "can I do it" anymore, but "what can I gain from it" instead.

That's a bold statement (the first sentence). But not entirely unforeseeable. Still, I think you're over-generalizing.

Bad phrasing again. It's hyperbole. "If you boil it all for hours and hours (which, well... is what I do ), then ultimately that's what you will get to when the water evaporates". But it's not the entire recipe as it is.

What would you consider a normal kind of life? The minute you label your limitations as handicaps, you're in trouble. You never struck me as the kind of person who would even be interested in a "normal life".

And again lack of context, and you are right about that last bit. I've done things far beyond the scope of my regular life (even far beyond the scope of most people's regular life). Packing my bags and flying to some far away country is "been there done that" by now. But time and time again, whatever variables I would tweak between one trip and the next (or in other situations throughout my life), I noticed something very consistent: whenever I force myself to integrate into something (even if I only trick myself in very subtle and convoluted and indirect ways), I just want to be back home. And I'm pretty good at disappearing.

The very few social connections and interactions in my life that I've been able to enjoy on a more lasting basis have felt natural right from the beginning. And a tricky thing about it is that I've learned exactly how those connections can collapse. Not just fade (which does happen too), but collapse. It's very hard not to see it happening in advance. Frustration for the first time gives you "wisdom" and "experience" and whatnot, but then after that it's just frustration. Trade-offs without reward, and unnecessarily instability. The list of bad experiences you can benefit from starts to dwindle.

It's a very fine line again, of course. There's lots of room for self-fulfilling prophecies. But then, as long as I can think straight or feel physically relaxed or refreshed, I'm okay with this outcome as permanent. That's crucial to me. It's when I don't feel like I can think straight or be physically relaxed (and don't know if or when or for how long I can fix it) that I start to get antsy about it.

Yesterday in particular it got very clear to me that my latest attempt at a long-term daily medication-and-exercise regime has failed. I want to not spend hours on a boring job that should take only half an hour, I want to play StarCraft without getting angry and discombobulated, and I want to go for a run without being tired for a week. Right now (today) I can't do any of those things without changing something, or waiting for better weather (the forecast isn't promising). Whether or not I should really just wait for better weather is unclear to me. But in the absence of of some seemingly conclusive sign, I assume that I shouldn't.

Okay. But I would consider focusing on how you interpret and experience life to be still living it. As long as you can think, you're still living.

Yes. It's just lack of proper words for these abstract things (or at least I haven't managed to find them yet).

And, so far, isolation with virtually no social pressure (from the outside or, more important, from the inside) has proven to be the one workable scenario for the long run. Or else my health goes down the drain, both physical and mental.

I'm tempted to say "well then, there's your answer." Can it be that simple?

To an extent, yes, it is. It's the unstable nature of my brain and/or metabolism that complicates things. It literally changes with the weather, among other things (some of which I'm aware of, and some of which I know I'm still not aware of).

Where is the shame in isolation? I know I may have expressed concern over my own isolation in previous posts, but I've never questioned it. And are you really that isolated? How can you be as isolated as I suspect you see yourself as if you're reading my post now? Or trading barbs with Dalloway?

I won't say "no shame", because people do have their expectations and I know I'm not immune to it, but yeah, it's not much anyway. The things I've been able to do easily outweigh that small amount of shame in any situation that matters.

I'm not as isolated as I think you think I think I am ( ), but I'm isolated enough that if I start to feel lost in the labyrinth of my mind, then that's where I will be, unless I pull myself out of there. This is why I post far-out stuff sometimes.

I sense self-pity too, but that's part of why we're all here, isn't it? Besides, I excel in self-pity, even when it's not overt.

I won't say I'm immune to self-pity, but this isn't it. It's a sudden turn of (inner) events that I'm all too familiar with and wish I wasn't anymore.

There's nothing wrong with getting exasperated over being unable to pinpoint your disfunction on any concrete cause. I would say whether or not you have SPD is irrelevant. In quandaries like this, any PD is irrelevant because I believe they are too vague a concept to hang your identity on. Or blame your problems on.

Yes, very much.

I don't know how to summarize this except to say "do the best you can", which sounds like some generic fortune cookie pedestrian post-1970's catchphrase. But when you attach it to a need for better understanding of yourself, things can get complicated if you don't know what you're working with.

Did I come close at all?

I think you probably can't see where I'm coming from, but I think you do get what I'm getting at anyway.

If nothing else (and I wouldn't say it is nothing else), you gave me a few hours of good distraction and reflection. Thanks.

Perhaps an embellishment of "Giving on life" would be in order because I think I understand the concept but your choice of wording may be a bit askew.

If you want to ask any other questions or elaborate on it any further, feel free. You have interesting points (and I'll probably be thinking about some of what you've already said in the back of my mind in the next few days).

In my experience, it is more helpful to focus on what you can do, rather than what you can't. You may have limitations, but you are not the only person with limitations on this planet. So instead of focusing on what prevents you from living a normal life as you perceive it, focus on the things that you can do, and let that lead you to a better place.