Schizoid and narcissism?

Dalloway wrote:Probably because nobody made a connection to a greek tale. Narcissus is widely known, schizoid has to be explained. Although I think the story of Narcissus is unfitting when it comes to npd.

He tells the nymph he rather dies than be embraces by her.
Why would a narcissist refuse supply?
His penalty is being struck with desire for his mirror image, which he doesn´t recognize as such (!), in a certain well, so that he shall suffer like those he shunned.
How is that npd? The core of the disorder is a feelings of shame and inadequacy.
He doesn´t invent the mirror image out of a feeling of inadequacy.
He doesn´t feel inadequate towards the mirror image.
He doesn´t utilize the mirror image to get supply.

A narc would drag all the nymphs he can get to the well and make them admire the image. But, that would make no sense in the story because he´s being showered with admiration from the start.

I think it would be easier to construct a schizoid tale out of this. Unable to accept praise, unmoving heart; searching for yourself, unable to grasp it.

The physical body of Narcissus represents the True Self of the narcissist. The True Self should not be embraced / accessed by anyone, even by himself. The narcissist protects his True Self with a projected image. The image is the False Self and the narcissist loves the image (supply). The False Self is everything the narcissist isn't. However, he doesn't know that the False Self isn't him. Narcissists are generally not self aware or minimal at best. The true feelings of the narcissist is the penalty.

Hope I'm not repeating myself too much, but it doesn't really matter all that much whether I have "full blown NPD/narcissism" or whether I "just have" narcissist traits "like everybody else". I believe I have more than enough, strongly enough to cause me bad anxiety, more than often enough. Just saying "we all have PD traits" doesn't really say much, or help much, me at least.

There are some things in discussions like this one that come up all the time, and I think, kind of derail them:

Black-white thinking. Ironically, Aristotileanism is very much grounded in black-white thinking and is the basis for "science". "Scientific psychologists" and their lay supporters see disorder theory and the DSM as "rigorous" while someone like me sees that claimed rigor as "rigid". I've accepted the vagueness, messiness, contradictions and paradoxes of shades-of-gray, yin-yang, multilayered thinking.

Gatekeepers. Usually it's people with an "official diagnosis" who constantly scoff at and dismiss us "self-diagnosed" members as "confused" or "wannabes". For a lot of people Narcissism/NPD/whatever is "egosyntonic" ---that's a $10 word "technical" word for self-flattering---so I can see where this attitude comes from. But narcissism, while it can often be self-flattering, can also lead to major existential anxiety, and that can be hell. Not everyone who states their self-suspected narcissism is bragging. They're just trying to vent and discuss their problem with people with similar problems. It's just a coping strategy.

When I call myself a narc or a schizoid in posts and elsewhere I'm not claiming "pro status" or infallibility. I'm just using the label expediently and in good faith.

Right now I'm exploring existentialism in an effort to understand myself and to alleviate my anxiety, but even there, there are pedants, gate-keepers and black-white thinkers who'll pick definitional nits and be unable to see the forest for the trees.

heracles wrote:Hope I'm not repeating myself too much, but it doesn't really matter all that much whether I have "full blown NPD/narcissism" or whether I "just have" narcissist traits "like everybody else". I believe I have more than enough, strongly enough to cause me bad anxiety, more than often enough. Just saying "we all have PD traits" doesn't really say much, or help much, me at least.

There are some things in discussions like this one that come up all the time, and I think, kind of derail them:

Black-white thinking. Ironically, Aristotileanism is very much grounded in black-white thinking and is the basis for "science". "Scientific psychologists" and their lay supporters see disorder theory and the DSM as "rigorous" while someone like me sees that claimed rigor as "rigid". I've accepted the vagueness, messiness, contradictions and paradoxes of shades-of-gray, yin-yang, multilayered thinking.

Gatekeepers. Usually it's people with an "official diagnosis" who constantly scoff at and dismiss us "self-diagnosed" members as "confused" or "wannabes". For a lot of people Narcissism/NPD/whatever is "egosyntonic" ---that's a $10 word "technical" word for self-flattering---so I can see where this attitude comes from. But narcissism, while it can often be self-flattering, can also lead to major existential anxiety, and that can be hell. Not everyone who states their self-suspected narcissism is bragging. They're just trying to vent and discuss their problem with people with similar problems. It's just a coping strategy.

When I call myself a narc or a schizoid in posts and elsewhere I'm not claiming "pro status" or infallibility. I'm just using the label expediently and in good faith.

Right now I'm exploring existentialism in an effort to understand myself and to alleviate my anxiety, but even there, there are pedants, gate-keepers and black-white thinkers who'll pick definitional nits and be unable to see the forest for the trees.

Amen.

heracles wrote:Right now I'm exploring existentialism in an effort to understand myself and to alleviate my anxiety, but even there, there are pedants, gate-keepers and black-white thinkers who'll pick definitional nits and be unable to see the forest for the trees.

which makes you the victim. full circle, mission accomplished, everybody is happy

lindi wrote:I've never heard anyone talk about "schizoidism" without talking about SzPD though...

All the psychoanalytic tradition does. For them it is a defense mechanism, same as narcissism. They can also quite easily go back and forth between them, so it is not like one person only use that defense, and some use the others, although in theory, it is how they would call a PD. If you believe in that theory, everybody would have those defenses, and you can add the borderline as well. But it is not clear cut either, some consider grandiosity as being schizoid, like Guntrip.

My rageaholic alcoholic father was most definitely NPD.

Several years ago I had his handwriting analyzed by a professional graphologist who worked with law enforcement. To my surprise, she picked up on his NPD immediately and also said that he had strong "schizoid tendencies."

He had no real friends but several business associates whom he sometimes went fishing and hunting with. But he despised people and hated interacting with them. He told my mother that polite conversation ("small talk") was "a complete waste of time."

He was phony enough to go through/successfully pull off perfunctory exchanges, but other than that he was very withdrawn so didn't interact with others much outside of work and his aforementioned sportsmen buddies.

Polarcat wrote:

JusticeMe wrote:My father was NPD and had "schizoid tendencies" but was not diagnosed as comorbid SPD. He had all the classic NPD traits including misanthropy, hating small talk, no empathy, and grandiosity. When he was "on" he was smooth and charming. OTOH, he could be VERY withdrawn and isolated.

Was your father good with you? How did you experience his (emotional?)withdrawal growing up?

My father wasn't good with anyone! He abused his employees just like his wife and three children. He was also an animal torturer and murdered someone with his car (drunk driving).

His withdrawal was complete, not just emotional. When physically present he wasn't looking and was uninterested, disengaged. Unless he was drunk and/or flying into a rage (I was the scapegoat so caught the brunt of this) or barking orders. The Golden Child -- well, that was different. He got all the attention, praise, and interest a kid could want. They went off hunting and fishing together, presumably for weekend "grooming sessions" in which my dad poisoned my brother against me (classic).

"Smooth and charming" is probably giving him too much credit. But, like most narcs, he had a public persona that was vastly different from what we saw at home. He had to, he owned businesses.

-- Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:17 pm --

Comp_Lex wrote:

JusticeMe wrote:You fail to consider four salient points:
1) The spectrum of severity of narcissism. Note that the OP reads "narcissists," not "NPD."
2) The spectrum of severity of schizoid. Note that the OP reads "schizoid," not SPD.

(#1 and #2) Ergo, one could be mildly to moderately schizoid and also be NPD. My father was LIVING PROOF that this occurs. One could be mildly narcissistic and also have SPD. Or any other point along these SPECTRUMS.

3) The subtypes of narcissism. A covert acts VERY differently from an overt.
4) There are tons of "contradictions" amongst comorbid PDs. Applying your reasoning, these comorbidities of PDs wouldn't exist. Yet we all know that they do.

There are other sources for this info besides Vanknin; I merely selected the initial hits of a Google search. Anyone interested can search for them; they are ubiquitous.

The spectra do not exist. You are either a narcissist (NPD) or you're not. All NPD criteria are malignant. The same counts for SPD, but that disorder is not malignant.

The Narcissism Spectrum Scale (NSS)-- Dr. Craig Malkin of Harvard Medical School

http://www.drcraigmalkin.com/the-narcissism-test

www.melanietoniaevans.com/quiz-npd.htm

I thought this was a good test too that tells you where you fall on the narcissism spectrum. I got "unhealthy narcissism."