Schizoid and narcissism?

The way I see it is that Schizoids have a form of narcissism, but its not the toxic, disordered kind that NPDs have.

I think NPDs are toxic, at least as long as they are not self-aware and haven't had treatment. They abuse and exploit others and they are out of touch with reality.

Narcissists have rages when triggered. I think of that as a hallmark of NPD. I like this description of what triggers NPD rage:

The anger of narcissists, on the other hand, can be more demeaning. Their criticism evolves from their conviction that others don't meet their lofty standards--or worse, aren't letting them get their own way. "Narcissistic injuries," or wounds to the ego, often pave the way for narcissistic rages, which can be passive-aggressive or planned out, as well as sudden. They are above you and you have displeased them and probably deserve punishment they will dole out.

from Psychology Today.

Schizoids may see themselves as "above" others, but I don't think of schizoids as having rages when thwarted.

My father was NPD and had "schizoid tendencies" but was not diagnosed as comorbid SPD. He had all the classic NPD traits including misanthropy, hating small talk, no empathy, and grandiosity. When he was "on" he was smooth and charming. OTOH, he could be VERY withdrawn and isolated.

Dalloway wrote:I would link it to the sense of self.

The schizoid´s sense of self is dependent on itself.
Interaction with other people has the potential to destroy this self-image.
Interaction is a possible threat.

The narcissists´ sense of self is dependent on others.
No interaction with others (no narcissistic supply) has the potential to destroy this self-image. Interaction is a possible breeding ground.

I think thats a direct opposite. In my opinion there is no possibility for comorbidity. If the sole breeding ground is the biggest threat (I don´t even think it would come to that) you would align yourself in another way.

Second big difference: empathy. The schizoid has it on varying levels, the narcissist doesn´t.

Well, of course there are fairly unsuccessful narcissists, who out of necessity withdraw, which is, on an external level, a schizoid mechanism, but not on an internal level.
Same as some secret schizoids, who, in an attempt to compensate, apply narcissistic behaviour, but again only on an external, behavioural level.

narc.-watching: I think you can spot them when they try to haul in perceptions about them or the whole “you´re stupid, because [I somehow think] you think you´re superior”-thing, which is just a weak ego and dependency.

.... no homo, äh, no diagnose.

Ding, ding, ding! You are going to the finals!

Well, I feel like I won a math competition because half of the other kids answered: potato.
Thanks for your comment.

JusticeMe wrote:My father was NPD and had "schizoid tendencies" but was not diagnosed as comorbid SPD. He had all the classic NPD traits including misanthropy, hating small talk, no empathy, and grandiosity. When he was "on" he was smooth and charming. OTOH, he could be VERY withdrawn and isolated.

Was your father good with you? How did you experience his (emotional?)withdrawal growing up?

Your replies have been very interesting to read! It's also good to know that I'm probably not some mythical schizoid-narc hybrid after all, but just a self-important prick

Dalloway wrote:I would link it to the sense of self.

The schizoid´s sense of self is dependent on itself.
Interaction with other people has the potential to destroy this self-image.
Interaction is a possible threat.

The narcissists´ sense of self is dependent on others.
No interaction with others (no narcissistic supply) has the potential to destroy this self-image. Interaction is a possible breeding ground.

That makes perfect sense. So it boils down to internally/externally directedness... speaking of which, maybe many normal people (/nons, if you like that term, it just feel a bit jargony to me) are so impossible to connect with, because their mentality is also very externally directed?
For example when I hear people talk about self-esteem, their advice about improving it has to do with comparing yourself to others. Or they say that you shouldn't compare, but their advices are thinly veiled comparisons, along the lines "but you're relatively good at this and that, not everyone could do it!". And I'm like... that way of thinking would ruin my self-esteem, if anything

Dalloway wrote:narc.-watching: I think you can spot them when they try to haul in perceptions about them or the whole “you´re stupid, because [I somehow think] you think you´re superior”-thing, which is just a weak ego and dependency.

.... no homo, äh, no diagnose.

I'm not sure what you mean with this... that narcissists tend to accuse others of being arrogant?

Polarcat wrote:

JusticeMe wrote:My father was NPD and had "schizoid tendencies" but was not diagnosed as comorbid SPD. He had all the classic NPD traits including misanthropy, hating small talk, no empathy, and grandiosity. When he was "on" he was smooth and charming. OTOH, he could be VERY withdrawn and isolated.

Was your father good with you? How did you experience his (emotional?)withdrawal growing up?

LOL!! NO, my father sucked with all of his kids. I was the scapegoat so was rejected by him from birth. He wanted nothing to do with me unless he was beating me, criticizing me, issuing mandates, or triangulating my siblings or friends against me.

He Golden Childed my brother, but they had issues too. My brother was beaten twice that I know of and ran away from home twice. My sister was the Invisible Child, pretty much ignored.

IOW, classic NPD parenting. Plus he was a MAJOR alcoholic (although highly functional) on top of it.

Dalloway wrote:

Well, I feel like I won a math competition because half of the other kids answered: potato.
Thanks for your comment.

Sorry, but I'll have to take that prize from you.

NPD and SPD can absolutely coexist! Here is just one excerpt from one article (Google is your friend, people!):

Intuitively, a connection between SPD and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) seems plausible. After all, narcissists are people who self-sufficiently withdraw from others. They love themselves in lieu of loving others. Lacking empathy, they regard others as mere instruments, objectified "Sources" of Narcissistic Supply.

The inverted narcissist (IN) is a narcissist who "projects" his narcissism onto another narcissist. The mechanism of projective identification allows the IN to experience his own narcissism vicariously, through the agency of a classic narcissist. But the IN is no less a narcissist than the classical one. He is no less socially reclusive.

A distinction must be made between social interactions and social relationships. The schizoid, the narcissist and the inverted narcissist all interact socially. But they fail to form human and social relationships (bonds). The schizoid is uninterested and the narcissist is both uninterested and incapable to due to his lack of empathy and pervasive sense of grandiosity.


Narcissists, Inverted Narcissists, and Schizoids
http://www.healthyplace.com/personality ... schizoids/


Narcissism with Other Mental Health Disorders (by Sam Vanknin)
http://www.healthyplace.com/personality ... diagnosis/

I agree with Dalloway's understanding of the differences between schizoids and narcissists.

The idea of schizoid narcissism comes from Guntrip, and often this particular quote: ""If I am superior to others, if I am above others, then I do not need others. When I say that I am above others, it does not mean that I feel better than them, it means that I am at a distance from them, a safe distance."

Schizoids sometimes work hard at being self-sufficient and are proud of the extent to which they do not need to rely on others. Narcissists need others to acknowledge their superiority, whether real or imagined, and regardless of any actual skill.

However, I also believe that schizoids can appear narcissistic in that we have atypical responses to praise and criticism. A lack of acknowledgement of praise or criticism can create the appearance of haughtiness, dismissiveness. However, narcissists have a very different atypical reaction, especially to criticism, which can often provoke the type of response Dalloway described.

I think of all the Cluster B's as being somewhat needy and dependent on other people for other things, whether it be supply, affection, attention, etc.

Cluster A's are defined by being isolated and shunning other people, for the most part.

NPDs will crave and seek out contact from others, sometimes in an aggressive, toxic manner.

SzPDs will avoid others, although they may appear dismissive, arrogant, as others said, but its due to the detachment. Most normal people don't understand this need for detachment, and may misinterpret it through their own lens. It appears foreign to them, so they distort it into something they understand, but which will probably be inaccurate. They think its due to delusions of superiority, for instance, when in reality its due to the person's need for autonomy.

NPDs have delusions of superiority, though, and their behavior is very haughty and arrogant, but in a way that is motivated by their beliefs that they are actually better than you, and therefore are entitled to look down upon you.

For NPDs, its a zero sum game. They are either the best, or they are the worst. So they are driven to tear down anyone they feel threatens their position as "alpha."

Schizoids are the "zetas." They exist outside the normal social strata. They are in their own category, while NPDs are completely immersed in the social game, and must end up on top, in their minds, or they feel they are nothing.