Schizoid and narcissism?

JusticeMe wrote:

Dalloway wrote:

Well, I feel like I won a math competition because half of the other kids answered: potato.
Thanks for your comment.

Sorry, but I'll have to take that prize from you.

NPD and SPD can absolutely coexist! Here is just one excerpt from one article (Google is your friend, people!):

Intuitively, a connection between SPD and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) seems plausible. After all, narcissists are people who self-sufficiently withdraw from others. They love themselves in lieu of loving others. Lacking empathy, they regard others as mere instruments, objectified "Sources" of Narcissistic Supply.

The inverted narcissist (IN) is a narcissist who "projects" his narcissism onto another narcissist. The mechanism of projective identification allows the IN to experience his own narcissism vicariously, through the agency of a classic narcissist. But the IN is no less a narcissist than the classical one. He is no less socially reclusive.

A distinction must be made between social interactions and social relationships. The schizoid, the narcissist and the inverted narcissist all interact socially. But they fail to form human and social relationships (bonds). The schizoid is uninterested and the narcissist is both uninterested and incapable to due to his lack of empathy and pervasive sense of grandiosity.


Narcissists, Inverted Narcissists, and Schizoids
http://www.healthyplace.com/personality ... schizoids/


Narcissism with Other Mental Health Disorders (by Sam Vanknin)
http://www.healthyplace.com/personality ... diagnosis/

I will take the prize and give it back to Dalloway. Sam Vaknin doesn't understand SPD. He thinks that having less contact with others is already schizoid. Narcissists and schizoids are fundamentally the same (True Self / False Self), but the PDs themselves are opposing PDs.

lindi wrote:(/nons, if you like that term, it just feel a bit jargony to me)

Well, I prefer mongrels ... or was it muggles? Let´s call them niggles.

lindi wrote:And I'm like... that way of thinking would ruin my self-esteem, if anything

Yes, and by looking at these two modes you know on which side you turn up. I don´t see how someone can turn up on both sides, or restructure to switch sides for that matter. Sadly, the post of JusticeMe, very temperate name btw, doesn´t provide any argumentation.


It´s getting harder for me to draw the line between the normal populace and people with npd. I remember someone saying: When we hear about the next big million-dollar-fraud, it´s not our sense of justice that gets triggered, people rather think “Damn it, that´s unfair, I wish I could make money like that”.
International politics is a npd-case.
The display of narcissistic behaviour is a normal developmental step in youth. I think our obsession with youth isn´t transporting the looks only. Plus, to make the circle complete, it´s far more easy to sell stuff to an egotistical brat than to a prudent adult. You have to be fresh, you have to want, you have to be, you deserve it, here´s your american express card.

On a linguistic note: Why the f. did the capital letter in English only survive when it comes to names and “I”? I think thats horrid. Why isn´t it We or Peace or Sense. I wish it were.
It´s linguistic narcism, isn´t it?

lindi wrote:I'm not sure what you mean with this... that narcissists tend to accuse others of being arrogant?

I think smirks and justagirl00 answered this in their last posts. I don´t want to repost their entire answers. So, to any lurker, skipping through the topic, go back! It´s worth it.

Addendum

justagirl00 wrote:Schizoids are the "zetas."

I worked very hard to be an upsilon! Ò.Ó

Dalloway wrote:Addendum

justagirl00 wrote:Schizoids are the "zetas."

I worked very hard to be an upsilon! Ò.Ó

All right. You may have an upsilon trophy to go along with your prize.

lindi wrote:Do they ever mix? Can they even theoretically mix, or are they polar opposites? I want to hear your views and definitely also the reasoning behind it (other than "I read it somewhere" - or if you read about it, could you summarize the reasonings there).

Do you think you personally might have narc traits?

And what would you consider healthy narcissism (if there's such a thing)?

As for me, I can certainly see myself having some narc traits. I don't yearn for admiration and I wouldn't stomp on other people's rights to get my way (except maybe a little bit, given the chance ).
But I am very self-centered (the world might not revolve around me, but "my world" sure does) and selfish (seems like my motives are all selfish at the core).
Also, I have a certain sense of "superiority" - not like I'm better compared to others, but rather that I'm detached from the comparisons and hierarchies of this world. As if I'm a very separate entity begrudgingly tolerating the lowish living standards of this world. Relating to that, I do have the apparently narcissist notion that I "deserve" a nice life by default, and any efforts on my part are a bonus (or should lead to an even nicer life).
But maybe these are just completely normal thoughts, devoid of any unhealthy narcissism... who knows? Literally, I'm asking if anyone knows

From what I've read of the covert narc and secret schizoid traits----Holdren, Guntrip, others in the mainly psycho-analytic field----I see myself as having a lot of both, to a signficant degree.

I'm very self-absorbed myself. Day and night, night and day, my thoughts are about my own sufferings, my own joys, my own thrills. Before my "crisis", I happily labeled myself a "benevolent egoist."

I guess my sense of superiority may be a lot like yours. Mine is a sense of uniqueness, of destiny, maybe martyrdom. I feel I'm much more sensitive than 99.9% of the masses, who seem like children to me. My inner life is incommunicable.

When I was younger, I imagine I may have been "very difficult" and maybe I did hurt people in my efforts to control them, but in recent years, I don't really see myself as "malignant". But who knows what other people who've known me would say? It all seems so subjective. I do have kind of an inner ruthlessness and cold determination, yet at the same time, consider myself a very ethical and non-violent person. I don't know how to explain this paradoxical self-perception.

To me, the whole idea of drawing a line between healthy and unhealthy narcissism is very, very vague. I don't care who claims to be able to do this. Whether they're a "pro" of some sort or just some confident, opinionated amateur (the kind who populate forums like these), I doubt them. Maybe there is some soft, blurry line between the two ends of the spectrum, but nobody's ever really defined that line to my satisfaction.

But I'm not like an overt narc. My frequent and persistent schizoid traits are avolition, anhedonia, social withdrawal, very weak "normal" emotions, just to name the main ones. I'm very mild-mannered, sometimes almost Sphynxian. I don't claim my schizoidism is extreme, but it's enough to cause me significant melancholy and anxiety.

Here's a link to a similar thread I posted on:

schizoid-personality/topic175274.html

Comp_Lex wrote:

JusticeMe wrote:

Dalloway wrote:

Well, I feel like I won a math competition because half of the other kids answered: potato.
Thanks for your comment.

Sorry, but I'll have to take that prize from you.

NPD and SPD can absolutely coexist! Here is just one excerpt from one article (Google is your friend, people!):

Intuitively, a connection between SPD and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) seems plausible. After all, narcissists are people who self-sufficiently withdraw from others. They love themselves in lieu of loving others. Lacking empathy, they regard others as mere instruments, objectified "Sources" of Narcissistic Supply.

The inverted narcissist (IN) is a narcissist who "projects" his narcissism onto another narcissist. The mechanism of projective identification allows the IN to experience his own narcissism vicariously, through the agency of a classic narcissist. But the IN is no less a narcissist than the classical one. He is no less socially reclusive.

A distinction must be made between social interactions and social relationships. The schizoid, the narcissist and the inverted narcissist all interact socially. But they fail to form human and social relationships (bonds). The schizoid is uninterested and the narcissist is both uninterested and incapable to due to his lack of empathy and pervasive sense of grandiosity.


Narcissists, Inverted Narcissists, and Schizoids
http://www.healthyplace.com/personality ... schizoids/


Narcissism with Other Mental Health Disorders (by Sam Vanknin)
http://www.healthyplace.com/personality ... diagnosis/

I will take the prize and give it back to Dalloway. Sam Vaknin doesn't understand SPD. He thinks that having less contact with others is already schizoid. Narcissists and schizoids are fundamentally the same (True Self / False Self), but the PDs themselves are opposing PDs.

You fail to consider four salient points:
1) The spectrum of severity of narcissism. Note that the OP reads "narcissists," not "NPD."
2) The spectrum of severity of schizoid. Note that the OP reads "schizoid," not SPD.

(#1 and #2) Ergo, one could be mildly to moderately schizoid and also be NPD. My father was LIVING PROOF that this occurs. One could be mildly narcissistic and also have SPD. Or any other point along these SPECTRUMS.

3) The subtypes of narcissism. A covert acts VERY differently from an overt.
4) There are tons of "contradictions" amongst comorbid PDs. Applying your reasoning, these comorbidities of PDs wouldn't exist. Yet we all know that they do.

There are other sources for this info besides Vanknin; I merely selected the initial hits of a Google search. Anyone interested can search for them; they are ubiquitous.

JusticeMe wrote:You fail to consider four salient points:
1) The spectrum of severity of narcissism. Note that the OP reads "narcissists," not "NPD."
2) The spectrum of severity of schizoid. Note that the OP reads "schizoid," not SPD.

(#1 and #2) Ergo, one could be mildly to moderately schizoid and also be NPD. My father was LIVING PROOF that this occurs. One could be mildly narcissistic and also have SPD. Or any other point along these SPECTRUMS.

3) The subtypes of narcissism. A covert acts VERY differently from an overt.
4) There are tons of "contradictions" amongst comorbid PDs. Applying your reasoning, these comorbidities of PDs wouldn't exist. Yet we all know that they do.

There are other sources for this info besides Vanknin; I merely selected the initial hits of a Google search. Anyone interested can search for them; they are ubiquitous.

The spectra do not exist. You are either a narcissist (NPD) or you're not. All NPD criteria are malignant. The same counts for SPD, but that disorder is not malignant.

JusticeMe wrote:You fail to consider four salient points:
1) The spectrum of severity of narcissism. Note that the OP reads "narcissists," not "NPD."
2) The spectrum of severity of schizoid. Note that the OP reads "schizoid," not SPD.

Well, I know that you can talk about narcissism without talking about NPD - that's why I separately mentioned "healthy narcissism". I should have been more clear, but when I talked about "narc traits", I referred to unhealthy narcissism, ie traits that a pwNPD would have as well.

I've never heard anyone talk about "schizoidism" without talking about SzPD though...

I´m annoyed I could be bothered to write:

Of course it´s about the disorders. Talking about whether or not tendencies can coexist is moronic. Just as Marcus555 wrote, everyone has every tendency to a degree.

lindi wrote:I've never heard anyone talk about "schizoidism" without talking about SzPD though...

Probably because nobody made a connection to a greek tale. Narcissus is widely known, schizoid has to be explained. Although I think the story of Narcissus is unfitting when it comes to npd.

He tells the nymph he rather dies than be embraces by her.
Why would a narcissist refuse supply?
His penalty is being struck with desire for his mirror image, which he doesn´t recognize as such (!), in a certain well, so that he shall suffer like those he shunned.
How is that npd? The core of the disorder is a feelings of shame and inadequacy.
He doesn´t invent the mirror image out of a feeling of inadequacy.
He doesn´t feel inadequate towards the mirror image.
He doesn´t utilize the mirror image to get supply.

A narc would drag all the nymphs he can get to the well and make them admire the image. But, that would make no sense in the story because he´s being showered with admiration from the start.

I think it would be easier to construct a schizoid tale out of this. Unable to accept praise, unmoving heart; searching for yourself, unable to grasp it.

Marcus555 wrote:

under ice wrote:Everyone has narcissistic traits.

Everyone has avoidant traits at times. As well as histrionic, borderline, antisocial, and paranoid. But are they really PD traits? I think there is a big difference between PD traits and character flaws.

People need this shoved down their throats.