Chronic emptiness

I know. I know. It's been said.

But, you probably read my previous post. You know I'm not a "Go seek help" kinda guy. I'm just as serious as the rest of you. My life seems very empty at times. I don't have any friends and never really have. I have tried many different ways of coping. I have put myself in a variety of environments. I have never found a good reason for me to be here other than the alternative just isn't acceptable to me. I don't believe in organized religion. But, I have found ways to enjoy life... to enjoy the ride even if it is being processed through a damaged brain.

Happiness is my personal goal. I want to be happier and enjoy life, even if it ain't all gravy. There are way too many awful points in my life, but I still find time to be happy.

Get a dog. Now, how cheesy is that? My life got a fair amount better after I moved away from home and got a dog. My little furry miniature Dachshund brings me a lot of joy.

Hobbies that have some accomplishment involved always help. Like watching crappy TV doesn't do it for me. Watching a movie does. I feel as though I did something and I experienced something.

On the same note, video games do the same thing. When it is near quit time at work, atleast I know I have something to do when I get home.

The internet seems to make me feel worse. I don't really do anything important on it or feel like I did something. Its just random wandering. But, I could see how it could help. There are a lot of things to do on the net that I'm not doing. Belonging to groups might be nice, but I'm not currently involved in any.

I mentioned that I fly R/C helicopters. I also enjoy repairing them from the bottom up. I'm going to buy a R/C car to see if that is worth doing. It gives me something to look forward to even if it is cheesy and kinda stupid.

I ride bikes which not only lets me buy parts for my bikes, but also seek out cool places to ride. We have mountain bike trails and road bike trails. And not to mention, riding on the road. Of course, you get the "workout" high which always helps your mood and outlook. You also get to be outside with a purpose.

I kayak down lazy "no current" creeks with my IPOD on.

Kayaking and biking are both acceptable loner sports where no one ever questions why you are by yourself.

I'm totally not fit. I'm 6'2" 260lbs, but I'm strong. It just makes you feel better.

Buy cd's that you like or download them. Try to find your own personal joys. Those are just my joys and I know a lot of them seem fairly stupid, but they all bring happiness to me.

Find a job that fits you. If you like being alone and the interactions at lunch time bother you, then you should find a job where you work alone. I used to feel like crap when someone would want to talk about what they did over their weekend and then they would want to know what I did. That just isn't an issue where I work. This is the first job I've ever had that I don't feel like just passing out when I get home. I've been here 3 years. I'm alright being odd, but I'm not alright when people continually point out that I'm odd. It wears on me.

I also don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. I'm not sure how much of that is a personal happiness issue. It might not matter much to you. I used to smoke, heavily.


I don't think its a matter of "Your body as a temple". It is a matter of being O.K. with who you are and supporting that. While the foundation may be cracked, there's no need in hitting it with a sledge hammer.

I know the last thing I'd want to hear when I'm depressed is some guy spouting out about being happy. But, it just makes such a difference when "living" stops being about some higher purpose that you can figure out and starts being about enjoying what you can, right now. Like, just posting here is kinda cool.

I was feeling pretty low Friday. The whole house thing got me. I started thinking about how I haven't accomplished much of anything. How there isn't a point to it all. How I'm just so ###$ up. How I don't have any friends. How I've always been odd. How people think about me. How I don't have a girlfriend. And my house got turned down. But, then I just said ###$ IT. I still have my dog, bikes, helicopters, kayaks... I'm probably going to buy an old boat for next summer and cruise around with my loner assed self listening to my favorite music... I'll probably get a house, just not that one.

Hell, I'm thinking about picking up a musical instrument.

John

Interesting posts here, i can relate to a lot of what you're saying.

Acid Crystal wrote:I'm basically a nihilist - I don't see any intrinsic value to life, but I also don't see anything in death. No reason to live; no reason to die. No reason to do anything really. I imagine this viewpoint is very common among schizoids.

Yep, probably. I'm a nihilist, too. I'm not sure life doesn't have a goal, doesn't lead to anything, bus as I have no idea what it could lead to... I have a hard time understanding how people can love life so much.

Acid Crystal wrote:And I think that most people who do kill themselves are feeling something worse than emptiness - some extreme emotional (or physical) pain that pushes them to overcome our basic survival instinct.

I agree with that. I've read a lot of people on the internet, talking about suicide. All of those who wanted to die did because of intense suffuring. Not because of their thoughts about life. I never tried to tell my point of view on the matter, but I'm pretty sure I'd have received the same sort of answer as dogtanian...
Well I'm lucky 'cause my father seems to be like me about this... often talking about the possibility of suicide, but not out of desperation. Perhaps I inherited this from him...
I haven't killed myself yet because :
- I would have to find a way to do it efficiently
- I don't want to hurt my family by doing that
- I think I don't have the courage to jump from a window or something like that... take some pills, why not, but I'm not sure it's efficient

Bye bye
WtW

Bringinitallback wrote:Hell, I'm thinking about picking up a musical instrument.

You should. I play classical guitar myself. It's one of the rare things in my life that I actually have a true passion for. It kills a lot of time too. I can spend hours playing not even realizing the passage of time. I find that these sort of activities where I can completely immerse myself in and can get lost in, I truly enjoy the most. And now that you mention kayaking, I remember that is also something I'd like to get into.

Truth is, there are plenty of things that fascinate me and plenty of things to keep me busy for the rest of my life, but none of it really destroys the underlying empty feelings of meaningless existance I experience on a daily basis. Keeping busy is just a way to cover up these empty feelings, just like I'd imagine how anti-deppresents work by creating a false sense of happiness. Although, as I am learning to cope, I'm discovering that life doesn't necessarily have to have meaning to it in order for there to be purpose. I realize now that the purpose is there, but the meaning is not nor cannot be known. IMO, the meaning of everything can only be known to that which created it and since the creator will never be revealed no meaning will ever be derived.

So I've decided from here on out to stop looking for meaning. From now on anything that comes my way will be embraced with full and complete acceptance and understanding. Life is a journey, I'm just here for the ride.

I believe in fatalism as well. If there’s anything that makes me depressed, it is these patterns we just cant seem to escape. We are patterns. In a way I see suicide as the absolute expression of self-will; sometimes I see it as the only possible conscious choice that a man can do – doing it rationally without fear or anxiety, not due to any event or depression.

Anyone read this piece by Karen Horney, called “appeal for freedom”? I’ll try to find it again. She's spot on. Even my obsession with ending my own existance on my own terms is exactly that - an appeal for freedom.

Watching_the_Wheels wrote:I agree with that. I've read a lot of people on the internet, talking about suicide. All of those who wanted to die did because of intense suffuring. Not because of their thoughts about life. I never tried to tell my point of view on the matter, but I'm pretty sure I'd have received the same sort of answer as dogtanian...
Well I'm lucky 'cause my father seems to be like me about this... often talking about the possibility of suicide, but not out of desperation. Perhaps I inherited this from him...

It seems odd for you to use the word "lucky" but I must admit, I wish I had someone in my family that I could talk to about this in a non-emotional way...but as a cold and logical possibility like how it exists in my mind. My parents are not at all schizoid in nature and they would respond with extreme emotion and concern, and I have no desire to put them through that.

Watching_the_Wheels wrote:I haven't killed myself yet because :
- I would have to find a way to do it efficiently
- I don't want to hurt my family by doing that
- I think I don't have the courage to jump from a window or something like that... take some pills, why not, but I'm not sure it's efficient

To be honest, I have pondered the jumping route before, right down to picking out a good spot in a desolate area with the necessary elevation change - it was almost a science for me. I do not deny that I'm a coward, but it gets back to what I was saying about the emptiness not being strong enough. When standing over the cliff with the full realization of what you are about to do, the survival instinct kicks in pretty strong and...I just don't think I wanted to die badly enough. I'm certainly tired of living but not yet desperate to escape.

Also, it is not my intention to be devil's advocate here and I certainly agree with what those of you are saying about finding ways to pass the time to cope with the emptiness. The ability to just say screw it and enjoy what you can out of solitary activities - it is something that I have done time and time again. For me it all comes down to not finding the continuous effort and desire necessary to be able to do those things. It is not just working to support myself, but the constant interaction and responsibility required to find and maintain a peaceful coexistence with society. It all weighs extremely heavily on me and sooner or later, I expect to start suffering for my neglect of my future until I can't take it anymore.

AC

Gogol wrote:Anyone read this piece by Karen Horney, called “appeal for freedom”? I’ll try to find it again. She's spot on. Even my obsession with ending my own existance on my own terms is exactly that - an appeal for freedom.

Hmmm...I'd definitely be interested in reading that if you find it. Freedom is something I highly value.

AC

Acid Crystal wrote:Do you think the incident you had as a baby had anything to do with developing SPD?

yeah, i think it definitely did. i see a Tdoc weekly - i initiated it because there were a few things that were just getting in the way of my life (albeit a not particularly exciting life) and i wanted to get to the bottom of it. she's convinced that my hospital experiences are the basis for lots of these things. i don't feel any emotional connection with my family - i quite like them as people, i can have intellectual discussions with them, but i don't do the whole physical/emotional thing. my little brother likes my mum to rub his feet. to me that is despicable and i just can't stomach it: partly because it's overtly physical, i suppose partly because it's a slightly sexual thing, like they talk about in pulp fiction, but mainly because it's about being comfortable in eachother's company and stuff, and i don't ever feel that and as a result i don't even understand the emotional connection. my family have noticed i've always been distant, aloof, never emotional with them. friendly, sure, but only superficially. i guess it's been hard for them: sometimes i tell them stuff my tdoc and i have said and they say "yes, that's true, you never did show us affection or anything".

i'm the same with most people, i have 2 or 3 what i would call "best friends", who i can happily spend time with and talk to, but i still don't really feel anything towards them. i like them, on a mental level. that's it. i would never say i loved them, becuase i just don't know what that means. i mean, i can say "i love cheese" but that's a bit different. i've never told anyone i love them, just because ... well, i don't.

I hate the idea that we are born and raised without our consent and then expected to perform all sorts of social duties and responsibility as if we are in debt to our families and to whatever society we are born in for giving us the privledge of living in such a civilized world.

totally agree. everyone seems to celebrate this "life" thing. i talked to my tdoc about how much i hate the idea of birth, and she said "but it's a miracle, doctors cry when they deliver their first baby" - why? it's something that happens probably as regularly as big macs being ordered. why's it so wonderful? it's not as though we ask to be born (i realise that sounds like a petulant teenager, to most people, but it's true).

i do agree with the rights and duties thing to an extent - i'm a politics student, so i agree with them in the political sense, but not in the human sense.

I'm glad that people on this forum seem to be more open-minded on this topic than what I am used to. Normally I am quite reluctant to share my views on suicide since people tend to dismiss me with a "you need help" or call me a Satanist or something. I am also confused by the social stigma of suicide and how people feel the need to glorify life to ridiculous proportions (or what I think is ridiculous anyway). I'm a member of an online "pro-choice" group and while it is difficult for me to say the group has been helpful to me, it was nice to talk to some people who share the same philosophy on life (and on death) as I do. It is also there that I first learned of the term "schizoid".
AC

i'm pro choice too. it kind of bothers me that people can be pro choice for abortion, and euthanasia, but find the concept of choosing one's own death more difficult. it's no different really. well, ok, a bit different from abortion, but you know what i mean.

dogtanian wrote:my family have noticed i've always been distant, aloof, never emotional with them. friendly, sure, but only superficially. i guess it's been hard for them: sometimes i tell them stuff my tdoc and i have said and they say "yes, that's true, you never did show us affection or anything".

Yeah, I'm the same way. Perhaps I should ask my parents next time the conversation turns serious if they noticed anything odd with me as a child. Do you have any theories about what the link could be between the hospital incident you had as a baby and the lack of affection?

dogtanian wrote:i'm the same with most people, i have 2 or 3 what i would call "best friends", who i can happily spend time with and talk to, but i still don't really feel anything towards them. i like them, on a mental level. that's it. i would never say i loved them, becuase i just don't know what that means. i mean, i can say "i love cheese" but that's a bit different. i've never told anyone i love them, just because ... well, i don't.

If something was to happen to them, would you feel anything? Maybe that is a good test for it.

dogtanian wrote:i do agree with the rights and duties thing to an extent - i'm a politics student, so i agree with them in the political sense, but not in the human sense.

I might know what you mean, but I tend to stay away from politics as much as possible - so perhaps you can elaborate more on the difference between the two.

dogtanian wrote:i'm pro choice too. it kind of bothers me that people can be pro choice for abortion, and euthanasia, but find the concept of choosing one's own death more difficult. it's no different really. well, ok, a bit different from abortion, but you know what i mean.

I suppose they might be pro-euthanasia in the sense of an extreme physical illness but otherwise pro-life. The problem I have with anything pro-life - whether it be abortion, euthanasia, or suicide - is that it always involves (pretty much by definition) placing an intrinsic positive value on life. The idea that life is fundamentally a "good" thing, even though such an idea is often automatic and subconscious, is still just an idea with no justification whatsoever. To me, that makes it no different from believing in god. Of course one should be free to believe in whatever makes them happy, but the moment they start to force other people towards their way of thinking, they cross a dangerous boundary. This is my stance.

AC

Acid Crystal wrote:Yeah, I'm the same way. Perhaps I should ask my parents next time the conversation turns serious if they noticed anything odd with me as a child. Do you have any theories about what the link could be between the hospital incident you had as a baby and the lack of affection?

i saw my mum yesterday, i was dreading it, expecting the usual forced sociability, but she bought me lunch (always good) and then we had a proper chat about how i feel. she didn't do the usual thing and just dismiss it as weird, she seemed to sort of accept it. certainly some of the OCD type stuff. also, we agreed that aside from how i feel about people i do seem to have manners: i am able to make the right noises in social situations, but i explained that most of the time i don't actually care.

as for the hospital thing: i just think it had an effect because i feel no bond with my mother whatsoever. as i've said before, intellectually i like her, and can talk to her about history or tv shows or whatever, but i don't feel any emotional link towards her. my T believes that apparently the maternal bond at birth is important because it's the one that teaches you unconsciously how to bond - it teaches you emotional attachment. i never had that. i was in an incubator for ages, i had very invasive surgery and as a result now i have a connection missing. even when i was little my mum said i had "an emotional screw loose" (nice...) and yesterday she told me that they took me to a child psych when i was about 9 and this person asked mum whether she'd bonded with me. mum answered that she felt she had, but that i hadn't bonded with her. which fits everything really.

If something was to happen to them, would you feel anything? Maybe that is a good test for it.

yeah, i get asked that a lot basically i don't know. a couple of reasonably good friends have died in the last few years. i remember feeling sad about it, sure, because they were young and they were happy and it seemed a shame, for them. but my upset didn't last particularly long. and at least some of it was because i felt hard done by that someone young and happy should die when there were millions of people who had real reason to want to die and they were still alive. i do occasionally think about them, but i wouldn't say i emotionally miss them. things remind me of them sometimes. it's harder to say with my 3 best friends because i just don't know. i feel closer to them than most, because i personally chose to put myself in that situation with regards them, so perhaps i did invest a bit more in it perhaps. i just don't know.

I might know what you mean, but I tend to stay away from politics as much as possible - so perhaps you can elaborate more on the difference between the two.

i don't know if i've ever thought about hte difference.... i think that it's hard to partake in rights and duties when it's expected by others as something inherently good. with political responsibility, having studied the philosophy behind it, i am able to see how it works, what the reasoning is behind having certain rights or duties, and why they were imposed. it's a lot more rational. the emotional stuff is totally irrational, it's just that societally we're conditioned to believe that "life is good" and that if someone shows emotions towards you are expected to reciprocate, without really knowing why. i think this links to society being obsessed with loneliness: they think you're inadequate if you don't/can't reciprocate these things and if you can't "keep" a partner or whatever. it seems to go against society's ideas if you want to be separate or different or alone. whereas in politics, because it's rationally constructed, there can be allowances made.

The problem I have with anything pro-life - whether it be abortion, euthanasia, or suicide - is that it always involves (pretty much by definition) placing an intrinsic positive value on life. The idea that life is fundamentally a "good" thing, even though such an idea is often automatic and subconscious, is still just an idea with no justification whatsoever. To me, that makes it no different from believing in god. Of course one should be free to believe in whatever makes them happy, but the moment they start to force other people towards their way of thinking, they cross a dangerous boundary. This is my stance.

i agree completely it goes back to the rights and duties thing - you were born so you have a duty to live, even though you didn't opt to be alive. looked at in a rational/logical sense it just sounds ridiculous

dogtanian wrote:also, we agreed that aside from how i feel about people i do seem to have manners: i am able to make the right noises in social situations, but i explained that most of the time i don't actually care.

Yes...that is interesting because people have told me before that I am very polite, even though it is sometimes obvious to them that I don't care and want them to leave me alone. However, at other times, I feel that I am not making this message clear enough, when people try to get friendly and social with me and eventually take it personally when I start avoiding them, stop answering their calls, etc.

dogtanian wrote:as for the hospital thing: i just think it had an effect because i feel no bond with my mother whatsoever. as i've said before, intellectually i like her, and can talk to her about history or tv shows or whatever, but i don't feel any emotional link towards her. my T believes that apparently the maternal bond at birth is important because it's the one that teaches you unconsciously how to bond - it teaches you emotional attachment. i never had that. i was in an incubator for ages, i had very invasive surgery and as a result now i have a connection missing.

I've wondered about a so called "attachment disorder" that apparently occurs close to birth when a mother is not intimate/affectionate enough with her child. It sounds similar to what you are describing. At this point, I don't wish to blame my mother for my unusual feelings (or lack of feelings), and this is also the reason that I'm hesitant to talk about it with her.

dogtanian wrote:it's harder to say with my 3 best friends because i just don't know. i feel closer to them than most, because i personally chose to put myself in that situation with regards them, so perhaps i did invest a bit more in it perhaps. i just don't know.

It is a lot better when the interaction feels like a choice instead of being forced. I thought I could perhaps be close to someone if I was able to be open and honest with them, and if they were accepting of my strangeness. I thought perhaps it was my inability to do that in the past that was why I feel so distant from everyone. I tested this, and found (somewhat surprisingly) that something was still strongly lacking. When humans become close, there is an emotional energy that flows between them. I don't want to say love, because that is too vague. But it was obvious there was something that just wasn't right, and felt so uncomfortable and ackward to me that I started pushing away and eventually stopped communicating entirely.

dogtanian wrote:with political responsibility, having studied the philosophy behind it, i am able to see how it works, what the reasoning is behind having certain rights or duties, and why they were imposed. it's a lot more rational.

I do agree that some of the moral code we have to follow makes a lot of logical sense. However I also think other aspects of it are extremely excessive and controlling.

dogtanian wrote:i agree completely it goes back to the rights and duties thing - you were born so you have a duty to live, even though you didn't opt to be alive. looked at in a rational/logical sense it just sounds ridiculous

Yeah - life should be a desirable quality, not a duty.

AC