Perception is everything

anotherworld has already expressed similar thoughts in other threads, but I've been thinking about perception a lot lately.

Why does praise and criticism from others have such little meaning to me? Because, if someone loves or hates me, they are not loving or hating who I really am (or how I see myself anyway). There exist too many layers between us for that to be possible. Schizoids seem to pick up on these layers more easily than other people - these layers become central to our interactions with others. The blatent fact that others are not praising or criticizing me, but instead, their own perception of me, which has been filtered through all these layers.

I talked to a schizoid (several years younger than me actually) a while ago. Recently, he committed suicide (overdose - I don't know all the details, but it was well-planned and executed). Only now am I starting to see the importance of something he wrote. Not to me, but to someone else. He copied it for me, I assume because he thought I might understand it. Perhaps you will understand it. I think it is incredibly difficult for schizoids to express their emotions, and I am amazed when one can say it so concisely:

"I don't know how to involve myself with another person that way, nor do I have any desire to.... people suck, in general, and having another person who would expect intimacy that I am not capable of would not make me happier to lie to.

Well, that's not entirely accurate, I do have the desire to be in an intimate relationship with other human beings, because that implies that I will be known, to be understood, as it were. But I know the realities of other people, and I realize the barrier between myself and others will never be torn down; I am fundamentally alone, forever. I know that you and I, I intended us to break our barriers so that we could be not alone, but maybe I overestimated our abilities... we were so close to accomplishing it, weren't we? Maybe it was just an illusion on my part, that I thought I could know you in that way. Did you ever feel you knew me like that, as I know myself?"

AC

Every human being is a closed system. So that's all we have to go on is observation.

Even when people allow themselves to be vulnerable and spill out their heart and soul to us,

we have to analyze the information through our own thought filters. Communication would be

so much simpler if we were all telepathic.

Good, you have changed your connections. So have i. Now We can communicate. 4 a while. only for a moment. I know all to well the shifting sands of perception. Let us cherish the moment as it now exists. Let us now imagine how the other views reality. I am not schizoid, depressed, crazy, shy. I am me

After years of entertaining the fact that i may be one disorder after another, i have

reached a conclusion that i began with. I can go to 7 different doctors and receive 7

different diagnosis all based on the same symptoms. As i try my best to take my Trillions of

connections about the world

and restrict them to meet societies Connections about reality. deep inside behind the

facade, the acting, my mind is free. Aware of the complexities that exist. Alone. my mind is

free. in jail, my mind is free. In the company of others, my mind is free. it is the only

thing thats mine. And ill fight all attempts of anyone or anything who tries to hijack it.

this isn't a question about what is or what isn't. This is a philosophical question.

"Is the glass half empty or is it half full". To one person, its half empty, to another

person its half full, to me its half full....no wait a second, its half empty. Even if 2

people agree that the glass of

water is half full. The 2 people can form totally separate realities about the glass of

water. Maybe one person was forced to drink 10 gallons of water in the past hour. While the

other was forced to go without water for a week. Even when people agree on something there

not really agreeing about the same thing. There only agreeing that the 1.5 billion, of the

trillions of connections used, are similar in nature,but not identical.



Lets say theoretically it only takes 1 billion connects to create a "picture" that the glass

is

half full. there are still 1 trillion other connections that a person makes about the glass

of water.

Physics tries to capture the relativity of it all. Even the so called greatest genius of our

time couldn't figure it out. Einstein went to his death bed trying to "put his finger on it"


String theory concludes that there is a reality, that is outside human comprehension. A 5th

dimension. The world is holographic. One can never put a finger on what is and what isn't.

as soon as you do it changes shape and form. This reality about the world is a gift and

a curse. I often find myself starting with one point of view about a subject. as time goes

by i could have reached a whole another view of the subject. Time doesn't exist, but in a

social context

may only have taken seconds.

We humans call this ability to imagine ourselves in another's place as "empathy". It takes

imagination. The mind itself is not still. while i may not agree with what Hitler did i can

use my imagination, reconnect the billions of neurons to give myself a mental picture of why

Hitler believed what he did. But i can still never see what Hitler Saw.

"If you don't understand something, change the way you think about it".

Neo: I just have never...
Rama-Kandra: ...heard a program speak of love?
Neo: It's a... human emotion.
Rama-Kandra: No, it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies. I see that you are in love. Can you tell me what you would give to hold on to that connection?
Neo: Anything.





Acid crystal wrote "Schizoids seem to pick up on these layers more easily than other people

- these layers become central to our interactions with others. The blatant fact that others

are not praising or criticizing me, but instead, their own perception of me, which has been

filtered through all these layers"

Why don't i ever get angry at things that are not in my world? Because it is not possible for another person or another thing to control anything in my world. As i am aware, in a social context that what i do can cause emotional harm to others, behind it all i truly do not understand how i have any control over anyone else's emotional state. I see my layers of Consciousness as separate things from the world around me. This is why you call me mind blind. But I assure you, i Am aware it exist. I am not aware that it may not exist for you. But i can try. I can imagine. You call it cognitive therapy, i call it imagination.

( A person cant compliment me because im in here and you are out there) it is not possible

for you to know me in my entirety!! Me as i exist can only truly be known thru my eyes. You can only form

"your reality" of what or who i am, which changes based on how much you allow it to change. You know this flesh this body. But im in here. I am

Billions of Neurons. This body is merely my life support) The only thing i truly know about

this world, is that I AM. Thats all one can ever know. These "layers" that acid crysal

speaks of are different Levels Of reality. The way i see the world is fundamentally

different than anyone else's. But in a social context, society says that i fundamentally see

the world differently than the majority of humans. Being the minority, i am disabled, anti

social, weired. Why because im not like you? Think about it, no one is like you!.



Agent Smith: Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I... hate this

place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it

any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste

your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive,

isn't it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in "your" mind is the key, my key. The

Matrix.


Agent smith does not realize that he himself holds the key that will set him free.



I do.

I think I understand what you are saying. Let me know if I'm on the right track:

2 people fall from atop a skyscraper.
One, rational and normal, knows death is imminent.
The other, insane, believes he is made of rubber and will bounce safely on the ground.
Both die when they hit bottom.
Only one feels the terror on the way down.

Well?

Hi Acidcrystal

I think that everyone is, indeed, locked in his/her own inner world. Most people are too afraid to examine their own world of thought, and in reality no one can examine it to its utter depth, not even schizoids. The mind always is involved in making myriads of calculations, at the same time that the Ego is busy with its particular ones, and that is entirely needed for us to survive. People who are more extroverted are both too focused on their realisation of self as parts of a society, and too afraid of being too carefull with introspection (they are not used to it). At the same time they do not want to face any threat from others, so they would naturally tend to paint everything in their own image more or less.
It is quite rare that a person is entirely introverted. I do not view it as some success, since ultimately it has its own problems. Most people will focus on something less introverted, or focus on it after defining for it a position which is clearly outside of their inner world, eg a mathematician can focus extremely on math, but without really caring about what it means to be able to make a mathematical thought; how he could do it, what it is to be able to make a distinction between the many elements of an equation etc. Besides, the human mind evolves continiously, which is why the people of today can more easily become scientists than those of 1000, or even 100 years ago; it is claimed that DNA contains all the mental formations in the mind of the ancestors, and so the particular ones which can be utilised for completing certain tasks (eg mathematical thinking) are already there, and are in a way revived, or unburried, by the child. Of course they at the same time being enriched, due to his own special consciousness of the moment.

Not much is being examined thoroughly, or philosophically, because it does not lead to either feeling happy, or being successful in one's field. Being very introverted leads to being isolated, and although to a very introverted person it can seem to be even horrible how others act impulsively (for example i have often wondered how other people can express real emotions in ordinary common talk; it seems so out of place for me) those others are just developed in a very different way.
There is no real communication, since we do not know how the other person views himself, or experiences the phenomenon of his consciousness. We can only form an approximation on our part of what he feels, and that would only remain to be an approximation.

Acid Crystal wrote:anotherworld has already expressed similar thoughts in other threads, but I've been thinking about perception a lot lately.

Why does praise and criticism from others have such little meaning to me? Because, if someone loves or hates me, they are not loving or hating who I really am (or how I see myself anyway). There exist too many layers between us for that to be possible. Schizoids seem to pick up on these layers more easily than other people - these layers become central to our interactions with others. The blatent fact that others are not praising or criticizing me, but instead, their own perception of me, which has been filtered through all these layers.[…]

I think that you are already several layers too deep. A schizoid personality does not (much) care about what others think, and would not worry about the perceptions of others.

Love me or hate me, it doesn’t matter… I don’t care either way. The “real me” is completely internal, protected, self-sufficient, and not shared with others. Say whatever you like, I’m going to do what I feel is right regardless.

If you really care what others think; then (in context) you are probably aversive, not schizoid. Aversives WANT social contact but are too anxious to make it happen. Schizoids, whether anxious or not, simply have no desire for such contact. They just DON’T CARE about social interaction; and therefore, would not engage in an analysis of what others may or may not be thinking.

I talked to a schizoid (several years younger than me actually) a while ago. Recently, he committed suicide (overdose - I don't know all the details, but it was well-planned and executed). Only now am I starting to see the importance of something he wrote. Not to me, but to someone else. He copied it for me, I assume because he thought I might understand it. Perhaps you will understand it. I think it is incredibly difficult for schizoids to express their emotions, and I am amazed when one can say it so concisely:

"I don't know how to involve myself with another person that way, nor do I have any desire to.... people suck, in general, and having another person who would expect intimacy that I am not capable of would not make me happier to lie to. […]

Except for the suicide part… (schizoids tend to want to escape society and intimacy, not necessarily life itself)… your acquaintance’s words are exemplar…

Dealing with people at any level is a hassle. Making an emotional investment in anyone has a poor risk/return ratio. Avoidance is better than lying.

Well, that's not entirely accurate, I do have the desire to be in an intimate relationship with other human beings, because that implies that I will be known, to be understood, as it were. But I know the realities of other people, and I realize the barrier between myself and others will never be torn down; I am fundamentally alone, forever. I know that you and I, I intended us to break our barriers so that we could be not alone, but maybe I overestimated our abilities... we were so close to accomplishing it, weren't we? Maybe it was just an illusion on my part, that I thought I could know you in that way. Did you ever feel you knew me like that, as I know myself?"

AC

Schizoids build barriers… (especially emotional barriers)… and have no “desire to be in an intimate relationship with other human beings.”

Life is so much better inside my mind; and external validation is neither wanted nor needed.

See the difference…?

I do not agree that a schizoid has to not care at all what others are thinking. It is not even part of the diagnostic criteria, and definately many types of personalities can include degrees of not caring. Moreover it is difficult to examine how much of not caring is genuine, or is just a mask for a deeper will to actually care.

The fundamental aspect of SP has to be near-complete introversion.

The fundamental aspect of SP has to be near-complete introversion.

Introversion is subjective.


as i can be with people and in my own place. spd are still on the side lines "observing.

Its only when a person activily tries to engage that one is being extroverted

Schizoids build barriers

how do they build barriers?

prot wrote:

The fundamental aspect of SP has to be near-complete introversion.

Introversion is subjective.

Not always. You might say that it is subjective whether one is introverted if he is with people and at the same time in his own place (which i trust is what everyone is doing anyway; to not realise that you are in your own world is not healthy) but it is another thing to be so introverted that you are only interested in self-observation.
Some people care only about analysing their dream world for example. They are more introverted than someone who has some friends and just is not the life of the party so to speak.

Not always. You might say that it is subjective whether one is introverted if he is with people and at the same time in his own place (which i trust is what everyone is doing anyway; to not realise that you are in your own world is not healthy) but it is another thing to be so introverted that you are only interested in self-observation.
Some people care only about analysing their dream world for example. They are more introverted than someone who has some friends and just is not the life of the party so to speak.

got it. makes sense