Need advice for relationship with SPD friend

Jakez wrote:Do you think he'll change? If he does have NPD, he doesn't have it to the extent where he's totally closed to other people, nor has he repressed his past hurts. Is that a positive sign that he could shift back out of these tendencies? Or should I just leave this relationship. I'm willing to work for it, but only if there's a decent chance that he might come away from these tendencies. Obviously you can't tell me for sure without knowing him, but based upon your knowledge of the disorder, what are the chances?

I have no idea. Maybe it's possible. Personally, looking back I was always a covert narcissist before, even as kid. I was in denial about it, in fact I disliked people who were overtly narcissistic. So maybe that will happen to him. Don't expect much empathy and a emotional relationship if it does happen. though. In the end it's up to you, I'm just speculating from what you are saying. He may not even be a narcissist, or may not even have any other type of personality disorder either.

anagram wrote:Wait, now it's NPD?..

Please, stop. Now. This is getting ridiculous.

(This is an advice.)

Argh, how many times must I tell you, the only reason I'm trying to use a personality disorder as a model is because our relationship is unnatural. It's not typical in any way, which is difficult for me to understand on an individual basis, since the other friendships I have are simple and natural feeling. I know what to expect from each person, they're consistent. Me and those friends are obviously on the same page.

This friend, who I feel very strongly for despite everything, is very inconsistent. At times, he behaves as if we're already together, we physically sit close to one another, we're touchy (in a non-sexual way), flirty body-language, etc. Then later he's completely aloof, not saying anything. He has the background to produce any number of personality disorders, he was shamed and neglected as a child. All in all, I think we can say he falls into one of those categories, or else I wouldn't be here. I know I've been largely consistent at least, and that he exhibits this same behavior with everyone. A normal person ("normal" being defined as in someone with a secure attachment style, who possesses constructive defense mechanisms that directly deal with emotional turmoil rather than project or conceal it), does not act this way. If he were simply not interested in me, he would not act the way he does when we're together. Yet if he was interested in me, a normal person would not constantly turn down oppertunities to be with the person they like. If he just wants to be friends with me, he would not say the things he does (calloused things). The way he behaves around me veers between romantic-friendship-not interested, without any kind of pattern. He's even told me of feels he has that are not healthy, so if that's not indicative of a disorder, I don't know what is

If it'll make you happy, let's avoid "diagnosing" and just say that his behavior falls into one of either spectrums. I'm just trying to classify his behavior, so I can figure out what I should do.

ykpaiha wrote:I have no idea. Maybe it's possible. Personally, looking back I was always a covert narcissist before, even as kid. I was in denial about it, in fact I disliked people who were overtly narcissistic. So maybe that will happen to him. Don't expect much empathy and a emotional relationship if it does happen. though. In the end it's up to you, I'm just speculating from what you are saying. He may not even be a narcissist, or may not even have any other type of personality disorder either.

What made you change? Was it inspired by some event or change in your life, or was it more of a gradual change, like you just sort of grew away from it.

If it's not consistent, it's not really even close to a personality disorder. Maybe he has DID. Or maybe he's trying to make you think he has DID so he can try and get benefits for disability because you convinced him to go to therapy.

Jakez wrote:This friend, who I feel very strongly for despite everything

'Despite'?...

If it'll make you happy, let's avoid "diagnosing" and just say that his behavior falls into one of either spectrums.

Even worse. The farther you are from a clinical picture, the less accurate are your predictions.

I'm just trying to classify his behavior, so I can figure out what I should do.

It's clear that you don't know enough about him to attempt this approach and expect it to be more successful than just following your gut. You can't base observations on assumptions and expect the conclusions to be reliable.

Acknowledge the possibility of failure of your prospective relationship/friendship. You cannot be successful in it if you don't. Make mistakes and learn from them. Communicate. That's the only way you'll build any solid foundations.

Zomonada wrote:If it's not consistent, it's not really even close to a personality disorder. Maybe he has DID.

Nah, it's not that inconsistent. He still has generally the same personality, it's just his behavior veers between very outgoing, to suddenly wanting little contact, then back to emotional intimacy again. It's still always the same guy driving these traits, and there's definitely none of the associated memory or cognitive effects that DID has.

Essentially, this is definitely an attachment-related issue of some sort, since it's a consistent pattern of fluctuating behavior that affects all of his friendships. Based upon one of his few blog posts from a month or so before I met him, he basically withdrew from everyone and just spent the summer alone. Yet he came back, and apologized for it claiming "I don't know why, I just felt like staying in my room all day".

Zomonada wrote:Or maybe he's trying to make you think he has DID so he can try and get benefits for disability because you convinced him to go to therapy.

Oh you Made me smile

anagram wrote:

Jakez wrote:This friend, who I feel very strongly for despite everything

'Despite'?...

There've been moments when I've felt extremely happy because of our relationship, but there are often moments where I'm left disappointed or hurt. I still care about him, despite that. I'm not saying I'll never get over him, I'm saying that if I do, I'll still care about him deeply as a friend. My attraction to him might subside, but my feelings for him as a person will not.

anagram wrote:Even worse. The farther you are from a clinical picture, the less accurate are your predictions.

Ok, this is exactly where we're thinking differently. I'm not trying to form a model that will allow me to make predictions about everything he does. Even if he were a textbook case of SPD/AvPD/NPD and followed those models to a T, they would still be insufficient to predict specific responses or actions to a reasonable degree. What I'm trying to do is get a general idea of his response to a general attitude, such as will he respond best to a person who makes little contact with him, or a person who makes frequent contact, but few demands, or a person who takes the initiative to trust, etc, etc. Just very basic attitudes. Not "If I say X, will he say Y or do Z?".

anagram wrote:

I'm just trying to classify his behavior, so I can figure out what I should do.

It's clear that you don't know enough about him to attempt this approach and expect it to be more successful than just following your gut. You can't base observations on assumptions and expect the conclusions to be reliable.

I beg to differ, although I clearly don't have unlimited insight into his mind, he has volunteered some insight into the depths of his feelings and past, the findings of which greatly suggest the possibility of a PD (he has spoken of childhood neglect, which very few come out of unscathed). I have known him for long enough to see many variations in his behavior, etc, etc. So yes, I agree that I cannot predict his response to specific situations and expect a reasonable probability that I'm correct, but I do have enough to get a general idea of how he'll respond. I just lack the personal insight into the 3 personality disorders that possibly apply to him to actually make those guesses.

anagram wrote:Acknowledge the possibility of failure of your prospective relationship/friendship. You cannot be successful in it if you don't. Make mistakes and learn from them. Communicate. That's the only way you'll build any solid foundations.

Uh, I've done that. Several times. Probably every post I've assured you that I'm prepared to accept that he just doesn't care about me in the same way I do for him (or even at all). I just don't want to throw this away before being sure that is the case.

Jakez wrote:Uh, I've done that. Several times. Probably every post I've assured you that I'm prepared to accept that he just doesn't care about me in the same way I do for him (or even at all).

I knew you'd tell me this in return, but it changes nothing. You're still thinking and acting as someone who doesn't acknowledge it.

Some things are just not up to you.

EDIT: When I said "Despite?" I meant "do you really like him all that much despite him being difficult, or is it maybe because of it?" Think deeply about it: what makes him so special to you?

Jakez wrote:What made you change? Was it inspired by some event or change in your life, or was it more of a gradual change, like you just sort of grew away from it.

I noticed that as soon as I got my GED diploma, I started becoming more and more schizoid. I suspect it's because for as far as I remember, for some reason I was treated better by my parents than my siblings were, not nearly enough to actually completely neglect my siblings, but they demanded more from me and I didn't know why, so I always thought it was to boost their own egos, even though they are not narcissistic. So I think all the stress just started fading away even though it's not exactly a master's degree.

Jakez wrote:Oh you Made me smile

As cynical as it may sound though, it might be true.

anagram wrote:

Jakez wrote:Uh, I've done that. Several times. Probably every post I've assured you that I'm prepared to accept that he just doesn't care about me in the same way I do for him (or even at all).

I knew you'd tell me this in return, but it changes nothing. You're still thinking and acting as someone who doesn't acknowledge it.

You're confusing hope with blindness. I can still hope that he'll feel the same way for me, but I know that he very well might not. What would drive me insane is the idea that we could have worked out, had I only given the relationship more time to grow. Sure, I'm not denying that at this point I haven't fully grasped the possibility that he might not like me, but that's the nature of love. You desperately want your feelings to be returned, and only when it becomes fully apparent the person does not, will you be able to feel grief and move on. Otherwise it could take years. I want to resolve this, here and now.

anagram wrote:EDIT: When I said "Despite?" I meant "do you really like him all that much despite him being difficult, or is it maybe because of it?" Think deeply about it: what makes him so special to you?

You make a good point. I admit that the fact he's so difficult to attain amplifies my feelings for him, that's a normal psychological effect. The same thing applies to getting a job, buying things, learning something. The harder it is to do/get, the more desirable it seems.

However, my feelings are not based purely on that. They may be exaggerated by it, but they exist distinctly. What makes him so special to me? Well there's two sides to that: What do I find attractive about him superficially, and what do I find attractive about him (the person, independent of their accomplishments, body, or interests)?

I can simply say I am physically attracted to him, I think he's beautiful. I like his hair, it's so silky :3. That's pretty one-dimensional, more importantly, I admire his dedication to his interests, I can sincerely say he's an amazing artist and musician, with so much potential. He inspires me to set aside my usual apathy and work to achieve what I can as well.

As for more the personal side of things, right from the beginning I felt at ease around him. I normally have a mild distrust for people, as I was teased a lot as a kid (never bullied in the horrible, persistent sense of the word, but poked fun at, made to feel awkward). It's unusual for me to talk to someone, and just a strong trusting impression from them (FYI I did not meet him because I was attracted to him, it just happened. He needed help with something, and I was like what the heck, I'll help out. Turns out we had stuff in common, and things slowly built from there). This feeling has been backed up during the few times when we're really emotionally open to each other, and I too have talked about difficult things that I haven't to anyone before, such as being teased in elementary school. He reinforced that trust by being kind when I told him these things, and reciprocated the trust by speaking about his feelings in turn.

We think a lot a like intellectually, we love debating topics from opposing sides (agreeably). In fact, had he been on this forum, and I been attracted to someone else, he'd probably be a lot like you, forcing me to consider myself from a new perspective.

We share a plethora of other traits, such as a very similar sense of humor, he makes me laugh. Since we're both very interested in computers and science in general, there's a lot we can talk about. We frequently have very intellectually stimulating conversations, which is why I enjoy spending time with him so much. It's not like the other times I've had a crush on someone, where I felt like the time I spent was an uncomfortable, but necessary investment to win them over, in this case I just enjoy it for what it is.

-- Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:47 pm --

ykpaiha wrote:

Jakez wrote:

Zomonada wrote:Or maybe he's trying to make you think he has DID so he can try and get benefits for disability because you convinced him to go to therapy.

Oh you. Made me smile

As cynical as it may sound though, it might be true.

I doubt it lol, I'm pretty sure he was joking

Stranger things have happened. Factitious disorders exist.

He could be manipulating you and you don't even know it. That's why he's playing hard to get, because you wouldn't want to be with him as much as you do now if he let you have what you want. You even admitted your feelings towards him are amplified by it. But soon he will let you have it, but for a price. Maybe it will be your life, maybe it will be your dignity, or maybe you'll be sold as a slave. Who knows?

(This is also an advice)

Jakez wrote:What would drive me insane is the idea that we could have worked out, had I only given the relationship more time to grow.

And this is how to ruin something before it even starts.