Need advice for relationship with SPD friend

Jakez wrote: So he'll know his schedule today, but I've decided to just let the question lie for a few days, and then I'll ask once more. If he's still vague, I'm just going to let it go, no hard feelings.

I have a friend that knows my moods and when I'm very unresponsive she doesn't push me even though she's extremely giddy by nature. I respect her a lot for that and I'd respect you for how you're treating the situation.


Edit: I don't have any advice but I've read some more and now just giving my similar experiences.
I have some girls that I only want to be friends with, I enjoy female company but I don't want an intimate relationship so the risk is girls eventually want to step up the relationship while I'm happy with how things are therefore I go cold (natural response because I panic) to push them out again and may go back to being cheery when things are at a 'safe' level again. I do appreciate their company though or I wouldn't bother with them at all, it's no different than with my male friends.
I have a few that I would also consider dating and it's purely based on how easy-going and un-needy they are, I imagine they wouldn't need constant company (though I could be wrong).
Personally though my reason for not dating anyone has nothing to do with them it's just because I like being alone and I'd need someone very special to make me give up my solitude.

Mrfeathers wrote:I have a friend that knows my moods and when I'm very unresponsive she doesn't push me even though she's extremely giddy by nature. I respect her a lot for that and I'd respect you for how you're treating the situation.

Hmm, unfortunately he didn't give me a chance to prove I wasn't going to push him, he didn't come online at all today. To be honest, I can't say I'm surprised, he probably thought I was going to ambush him the moment he came on. I sort of suspect he won't be on tommorow either, though maybe he will. I wish he'd just let me prove that I won't push him when I know something makes him uncomfortable

I'm just so confused about him (I've underlined the important parts of the following wall of text, to aid in reading ); He clearly has some sort of attachment issue, since he's bizarrely inconsistent in our relationship, and from what I can establish, the few others he has too. He seems to have avoidant traits, in the sense that he doesn't initiate things, but will often enjoy them when I do, yet he definitely doesn't have any social anxiety. He's very outgoing, in fact, often more than I am. Yet he has spoken to me of a great fear of being judged poorly (but only when he too agrees with that judgement). He's not afraid that someone will think he's weird because of who he is, but say he makes a mistake, it drives him crazy thinking everyone now believes he's stupid. In fact, he describes it as an extreme fear, accompanied by feelings of shame. His overall self-esteem is very good though, since he's a very talented artist, musician and programmer, and he knows it. It's almost like he has a high self-esteem, but it is easily brought low by criticism. From what I can tell, those are very avoidant traits. Yet, apparently a defining characteristic of AvPD is social anxiety of some form, which he definitely has no issue with. He had no anxiety leading up to his job interview, giving presentations in school, generally drawing attention in class, etc. However, someone with SPD would simply not give a $#%^ if someone thought they were stupid, which he does. It's like he's not generally paranoid that people are judging him, but when there's a likelihood they are, his anxiety just amps up. On the flipside of the spectrum, he seems to take pleasure in praise, like when I sincerely compliment something he put a lot of work into, he just glows He also is receptive to emotional intimacy at times, such as when I hug him, he'll often wrap his arm around me too, and we both get bubbly after letting go.

He has a large majority of the SPD traits though, mainly a strong preference for solitude. At most he seems to only want to hang out twice a month, though we talk a lot at school. He also has expressed a lack of interest in sex, though of course in our current relationship I wouldn't know the details. He also has the ability to sink an amazing amount of time into his areas of interest, for example, he's an amazing programmer, musician, and artist, and he's only been seriously at them for about a year and a half. He spends a large amount of his time just advancing those areas without doing much else (which is of course admirable). Finally, he seems unaware of things that are hurtful to me (and would be to most people). For example, I spent a large chunk of time drawing something for him, yet when my birthday came around the corner, he did nothing for me (before you accuse me of being selfish, it wasn't the lack of a gift that hurt me, it was just that I would have treasured something he made himself, just as a symbol of the value of our friendship). He has also said things that were ridiculously hurtful, yet continued talking as if unaware of what he said (i.e a while back we were chatting online, and I asked him if I felt like playing BF3 for a bit, to which he responded "Nah, I haven't felt like playing video games lately, I only go on when it has meaning, like to play with friends", and all I could think was, "wait, we're not friends?"). I'm completely sure that when he says those things, he has no idea how I feel, since he keeps the conversation moving, and later says other kind things. It's almost like he's socially out of tune, like something that most people would find obviously hurtful has no significant meaning to him.

Basically, I'm really confused, since he behaves a lot like someone with SPD, yet he does seem to be interested in maintaining a friendship with me. Though he does avoid hanging out more than rarely, he does seem to worry that I'll get sick of him and disappear, since he makes excuses as for why he can't, and tries to make up for it by expressing an interest in what I'm doing. I get the impression that the defining point of SPD is basically a lack of, or very weak desire for friendships, yet he does seem to value ours, and their are times when he seems to really enjoy spending time with me. Just as he neither fits the bill for SPD, he doesn't really fit AvPD either. He does fear people thinking less of him, and is prone to feeling unwarranted shame after making a mistake, yet under normal circumstances he has no social anxiety, and has an outgoing personality.

The reason I'm trying to model his personality around SPD/AvPD is just because how I should approach him distinctly depends on either of those. If he was more SPD leaning, I'd be better off making little if any attempts to push intimacy up a notch, rather waiting for him to set the bar. If he's avoidant, I should take the lead, since he won't. Which end of that spectrum he falls into determines whether he desires friendships but fears rejection/disappointment, or doesn't desire intimacy. People with either of those disorders respond best to completely different friendships. So please bear with me, I'm only taking this approach so I can figure out a clear course of action. Does anyone have any insight into this strange combination of AvPD and SPD traits?

Maybe he's just introverted and somewhat narcissistic or maybe just insecure, but I doubt an insecure person would feel as confident as he does in public. I used to be the same way you described him until I developed more into of a schizoid.

How about Asperger's?

But many people have traits of a PD without a perfect score on a dysfunction test. Especially younger people who aren't so set in their personality yet.

ykpaiha wrote:Maybe he's just introverted and somewhat narcissistic or maybe just insecure, but I doubt an insecure person would feel as confident as he does in public. I used to be the same way you described him until I developed more into of a schizoid.

It's strange though, because his avoidant behavior when it does occur is very powerful, as in, he just drops off the map for a day or two. I can see in his post record that he did just that for the entire summer with his friends.

As for narcissm I'm going back over the DSM, and it's a little creepy, but he does match with a lot of the traits. The only thing I can say refutes the idea is that he's never expressed any feelings of superiority over other people, nor does he seem to seek to manipulate me (the only possible form of manipulation he engages in is just avoiding me, yet there seems to be no pattern to when he does that, usually there's no obvious goal). Also, though I did say he loves sincere compliments, he doesn't fish for them (usually I have to ask him to show me something he's done, he doesn't show off his accomplishments), and often I don't think he realizes the sincerity of them. He's also not arrogantly sure of his perfection or anything like that, he's often a bit pessimistic about his own work, noticing flaws and easily being disappointed by them.

One question I do have to those who have better experience with narcissm than I do, how does the characteristic lack of empathy manifest itself? Is it in terms of simply being unaware of how other people feel, or not caring about it?

Ada wrote:How about Asperger's?

But many people have traits of a PD without a perfect score on a dysfunction test. Especially younger people who aren't so set in their personality yet.

It could be aspergers in terms of our relationship, but he has none of the associated social awkwardness, odd speech, or extreme focus on one narrow subject (he has multiple distinct hobbies).


Well today I learned he went to a party yesterday, when I thought he was working. It really hit me hard, since he just tossed the fact out there out of the blue. I hate to sound needy, or clingy, but it really hurt that he didn't invite me; it was an open party for anyone to come to. I think the part that hurt the most is that the same weekend that I asked him if he wanted to do something together next week, he turned me down then proceeded to go to a party. I dunno why he didn't invite me, if it was because he just didn't realize I'd want to come, if he was feeling pressured by me, I don't know. I just know it makes me feel unwanted, which is painful because I care about him.

This relationship is starting to get toxic; I would gladly stay on this rollarcoaster ride if there was some foreseeable leveling out between us (either as good friends or closer), rather than this constant up and down. I've decided that I'll ask him out once more in a couple of days, and then if he refuses again or dodges it, that's it. I'll give him the letter explaining everything on the small possibility this is just all some ridiculous confusion, but I won't expect anything. I'm going to try and get over my feelings for him. I still want to be friends with him, but I just can't just keep being hurt like this without any foreseeable end. I just need some sign from him that he values me even just as a friend.

Does the "shy/covert" section of this article sound like him from your experiences?

http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcis ... rison.html

This relationship is starting to get toxic; I would gladly stay on this rollarcoaster ride if there was some foreseeable leveling out between us (either as good friends or closer), rather than this constant up and down. I've decided that I'll ask him out once more in a couple of days, and then if he refuses again or dodges it, that's it. I'll give him the letter explaining everything on the small possibility this is just all some ridiculous confusion, but I won't expect anything. I'm going to try and get over my feelings for him. I still want to be friends with him, but I just can't just keep being hurt like this without any foreseeable end. I just need some sign from him that he values me even just as a friend.

Since I am constantly introspecting, I used to search a lot about covert narcissism and most people that experienced being in a relationship with a covert narcissist feel the same way you do: confused. But like you said, he doesn't seem to be manipulative and apathetic like a real narcissist would be.

ykpaiha wrote:Does the "shy/covert" section of this article sound like him from your experiences?

http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcis ... rison.html

God that sounds like him. When we first met, he didn't remember my name for a few days (admittedly we never said "Hi I'm X", just gave online profile links which don't have our real names, so he could have missed me saying who I was), he did ask though and never forgot it afterwords. But still, as best I can tell from surface observations, that's him. Yet again, a key trait is missing: I'm not his narcissistic supply; he doesn't fish for compliments with me, and doesn't always believe I mean them, despite my sincerity. So he's not convinced of his superiority or anything. However, it could be that he's just been very subtle about this side, or more likely, that he's not consciously aware of it. I'd have to pay more attention to how he interacts with me to see if I can notice subtle signs of manipulation.

ykpaiha wrote:Since I am constantly introspecting, I used to search a lot about covert narcissism and most people that experienced being in a relationship with a covert narcissist feel the same way you do: confused. But like you said, he doesn't seem to be manipulative and apathetic like a real narcissist would be.

Yeah, reading more into Covert Narcissism, I'm finding a lot of parallels in behavior between him and the disorder. Rather than believe he's purposefully using me, I think it's more likely it's unconscious; I'm an easy source of affirmation, since I stick around he can just go under and surface whenever he feels like it. I'm almost certain he harbors no malignant thoughts for me, but I'm beginning to wonder if unconsciously he's using me. I've seen glimpses of a sensitive, lonely, person deep inside him, he's opened up a few times in conversation. It looks like I'm not the person he's looking for, but I've seen glances of a loneliness beneath the surface.

What are the prospectives of a relationship with such a person? Is the fact that he hasn't buried his feelings deep enough that he denies them (yet) a sign that he could still come away from narcissism (if he has it)? Or would I be better off just leaving this thing as a friendship?

Yet again, a key trait is missing: I'm not his narcissistic supply; he doesn't fish for compliments with me, and doesn't always believe I mean them, despite my sincerity.

From this page: http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcis ... ssist.html

"While feeling they deserve to be recognized for their specialness, unlike the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist, the Covert/Shy Narcissist is plagued by self-doubts and thus does not as readily seek the affirmation from others he or she believes is due. Moreover, because of this strong sense of worthlessness, this type of narcissist often will not seek out appropriate friends or romantic partners because they fear exposure as frauds; for this reason their associates tend to be conspicuously inferior to themselves. Cooper observes that this narcissist, �secretly harbors fantasies that he or she is engaged in a heroic rescue of someone of lesser capabilities.�4 And, when their friends and associates offer praise, the Shy/Covert Narcissist believes that this admiration is phony and insincere. They tend to devote a considerable amount of time ruminating over the unfairness of how little their true worth is appreciated and how others get the recognition for things that they themselves did."

ykpaiha wrote:

Yet again, a key trait is missing: I'm not his narcissistic supply; he doesn't fish for compliments with me, and doesn't always believe I mean them, despite my sincerity.

From this page: http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcis ... ssist.html

"While feeling they deserve to be recognized for their specialness, unlike the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist, the Covert/Shy Narcissist is plagued by self-doubts and thus does not as readily seek the affirmation from others he or she believes is due. Moreover, because of this strong sense of worthlessness, this type of narcissist often will not seek out appropriate friends or romantic partners because they fear exposure as frauds; for this reason their associates tend to be conspicuously inferior to themselves. Cooper observes that this narcissist, �secretly harbors fantasies that he or she is engaged in a heroic rescue of someone of lesser capabilities.�4 And, when their friends and associates offer praise, the Shy/Covert Narcissist believes that this admiration is phony and insincere. They tend to devote a considerable amount of time ruminating over the unfairness of how little their true worth is appreciated and how others get the recognition for things that they themselves did."

Oh my god, aside from not being able to validate the internal traits (predicting someone's deep , introverted, thoughts is a pointless endeavor), those external traits are matching up completely.

The weird thing is that "heroic rescue of someone of lesser capabilities" is bizarrely twisted in this case, and it brings to light some of my long running issues that I am aware of, and have been slowly pruning: I'm a codependant. I figured that out before I met him, so luckily I never got swept up by it in this relationship (there have been moments where it's spiked, but I usually notice and resolve my unhealthy expectations). However I have to admit that his neglected past was attractive to my codependency, you know, the thought that I could "heal" him. You don't have to say it, I know exactly why I feel that way (I have self-esteem issues due to my ADD related lack of motivation, so the act of being a "hero" is attractive, since it requires little effort aside from just being kind and caring, but feels extremely rewarding. It's unhealthy, I know), and I don't let it get out of control.

So strangely, I fit the "heroic rescuer" persona, but yet I'm the one of lesser capabilities. I'm honestly saying this without any self-pity or exaggeration, but he's much more advanced in his areas of interests than me. He's capable of a fierce devotion to them, so he's very far along with them. His art and music are wonderful, and he's only been at them for a year. It's like we're reading each other's lines in a play, figuratively

Do you think he'll change? If he does have NPD, he doesn't have it to the extent where he's totally closed to other people, nor has he repressed his past hurts. Is that a positive sign that he could shift back out of these tendencies? Or should I just leave this relationship. I'm willing to work for it, but only if there's a decent chance that he might come away from these tendencies. Obviously you can't tell me for sure without knowing him, but based upon your knowledge of the disorder, what are the chances?

Wait, now it's NPD?..

Please, stop. Now. This is getting ridiculous.

(This is an advice.)