When I was younger I let my dog lick me once

This is spiraling out again. The root of this is innocence. We aren't talking about consent or whatever else is being poured into this conversation to convolute the subject, we're talking about innocence.

A lot of people regard dogs as pets, but many couples will decide to own their first puppy together to prepare themselves to have a baby. Many people will even call some of their pets their baby, so the comparison between pets and kids is very valid and alive. Likewise, just as a kid doesn't know what he/she is doing, a pet doesn't know what it's doing. There's an innocence there and once again, there are people that abuse that innocence for their own self-pleasure.

On behalf of vegans, and animal activists alike, pets do have feelings and as with anything innocent, even though you may not outwardly see the effects of any harm done to the pet, you'll never know because you are not the animal being subjected to this. I for one absolutely believe this is animal abuse, not just because of the erosion of self respect to the person involved but because there's trust, innocence and feelings in that animal that that person has completely taken advantage of.

I feel sorry for any pet subjected to this form of deceit.

IDK, Chaos... I'm a long-time vegetarian and I'd still find it hard to come down as hard on the OP as you are since, at the end of the day, if you consume dairy and eggs (let alone eat meat) you're/ we're/ I'm responsible for a lot more animal suffering than a 12-year-old girl who had her dog lick her.

I actually think you're projecting onto the animals and seeing this from too anthropocentric a position, especially since you seem to believe strongly in respecting the narrative and experience of the individual victim.

There is no point at which a dog could grow up to regret or feel trauma or pain over the breach of trust. It's going to have experienced this as far less harmful than if someone, for example, had kicked them (a far more common thing).

As said, I'd never condone this behaviour - at the very least I think it does damage to the human's self-worth, integrity and sense of self. But if you are insisting on the innocence of an animal, you have to equally respect the innocence of a 12-year-old kid, who isn't going to be very aware of what they are doing or any potential repercussions.

A few years back a housemate of mine owned rabbits. One of those rabbits would aggressively mount the head of the other rabbit and hump it. If a human did this it would clearly be sexual assault. I don't think it makes sense to call that rabbit 'innocent' since it never really had the choice to 'do good' or to choose not to cause harm. Non-human animals (with a few exceptions like dolphins/ whales and certain primates) are a-moral. They don't have a moral system. But they *do* feel harm. So that is what we should be focusing on.

You're right, I respect the narrative and experience of the victim and in this case, the victim is the dog. I have no respect for what this 12 yr old did with her dog, nor do I believe she was innocent in doing what she did either. However, my response was not to condemn her but a response aimed against the notion that a dog or a pet doesn't have feelings or that you have any right to assume what a non-human animal will feel. You are not a dog .. and therefore you don't have the right to predict or assume the feelings of that animal in that experience.

Fair point - I guess one can only assume what a dog feels. Either way, definitely not something to be condoned and I respect that what you were saying about the responses was not so much based in wanted to shame the OP but in pointing out that we were focusing too much on a concept alien to animals.

sprock wrote:IDK, Chaos... I'm a long-time vegetarian and I'd still find it hard to come down as hard on the OP as you are since, at the end of the day, if you consume dairy and eggs (let alone eat meat) you're/ we're/ I'm responsible for a lot more animal suffering than a 12-year-old girl who had her dog lick her.

I actually think you're projecting onto the animals and seeing this from too anthropocentric a position, especially since you seem to believe strongly in respecting the narrative and experience of the individual victim.

There is no point at which a dog could grow up to regret or feel trauma or pain over the breach of trust. It's going to have experienced this as far less harmful than if someone, for example, had kicked them (a far more common thing).

As said, I'd never condone this behaviour - at the very least I think it does damage to the human's self-worth, integrity and sense of self. But if you are insisting on the innocence of an animal, you have to equally respect the innocence of a 12-year-old kid, who isn't going to be very aware of what they are doing or any potential repercussions.

A few years back a housemate of mine owned rabbits. One of those rabbits would aggressively mount the head of the other rabbit and hump it. If a human did this it would clearly be sexual assault. I don't think it makes sense to call that rabbit 'innocent' since it never really had the choice to 'do good' or to choose not to cause harm. Non-human animals (with a few exceptions like dolphins/ whales and certain primates) are a-moral. They don't have a moral system. But they *do* feel harm. So that is what we should be focusing on.

I used to keep rabbits. That's rabbit for, 'I'm Alpha Rabbit, and you're not'.

I don't consider the dog a victim, period, unless it was made to do it. I'm an animal lover, and am against cruelty or mistreatment, but dogs lick. It's what they do. As long as the dog wasn't forced, I consider it inappropriate, but I'm not sure the same concept of 'innocence' can exist in the first place, to have deprived the dog of it. How many times have I seen a girl have to push a dog's snout away from her (clothed) crotch....? Plenty. In the absence of evidence that the dog was physically restrained or forced in any way, or physical hurt sustained to the animal as a result of licking the OP, I can't accept an argument that it constitutes animal cruelty.