Breakup and Issues

Hey guys, I broke up with my girlfriend after she sent me a message listing all of these issues she had with me. I did not realize that there were all of these issues and it sounded like she wanted to break up and I did not want to keep her in a relationship she did not want to be in. I obliged. I later realized that she wanted to work things out. She was depressed, and I kept contacting her after a month trying to get her to understand my side of things. I went crazy. I ended up thinking I had a mental illness, which the jury is still out on that. . Anyway, the thing that hurt me the most is that she said that when we were together a few times, that I touched her intimately when she did not want to be touched and said that I crossed that line a few times. I hate this with a passion and feel like a monster. I never realized that she was uncomfortable, and I thought that she was okay with it and it was "seduction", and I never knew she was unhappy and uncomfortable, and I am saddened that she did not feel like she could tell me this before. I feel like an idiot, and it makes me a bad person. It is not okay at all. She will never talk to me again (not because of this, but because she just fell out of love with my incessant contacting after we fell apart -my abandonment issues?) and it just sort of sucks.

Thank you for your post. First of all, you're obviously not a monster. Your ex hasn't said that and I don't think that. She has said you made her feel uncomfortable. I totally believe you when you say it wasn't intentional. From my own experience I know that it is possible to confuse seduction with pressure and even if you've internalised 'NO means NO' at a young age this can be a way to excuse to yourself trying to move things forward in the absence of a 'NO'.

This isn't necessarily to say you didn't do anything wrong. I did. It seems possible you did. But it doesn't automatically make you predatory and certainly if you're still under 25 (or so) your brain is still changing and developing and you can learn and grow from this.

I'm not going to lie - it's frikkin' hard. Seven years later I still feel guilty everyday and I suspect that's something I'm just going to have to learn to live with (which slowly, I think, I am doing). **But that doesn't mean I don't deserve continued existence.** An okay, manageable life is not the end of the world. It is possible to continue living without feeling happy or free all-the-time, or even most of the time. The important thing is to put good back into the world.

As said, I believe it is certainly possible that you didn't even have the faintest inkling at the time that something was wrong. If your gf literally gave you no indication that there was anything the matter I honest do not feel I think it would be unfair to blame you for what happened. That said, I think one can generally have -some sort of a sense- when one's partner is even a tiny bit unsure or sleepy or uncomfortable, even if they might be anxious about saying so, or are acquiescing or going along with something cause they don't want to cause a fuss. I think there can be a lot of reasons why a young woman might do this - not only fear or anxiety, but because women and girls are taught generally to be quiet and not to contradict guys and to generally be peace-makers. Plus, at the time she may have simply wanted to please you, make you happy, or might have felt obliged. Like, a lot of complex stuff could have been going on! Obviously I can't speak for your ex and wouldn't want to.

Basically IMHO it sounds as though you were clumsy and not wholly self-aware... which means you, sadly - acted like a lot of young men (younger me very much included). I don't want to minimise the seriousness of boundary violations or anything that might be considered sexual harassment or assault by saying this, since something being relatively common doesn't make it "ok", but I strongly suspect such behaviour in relationships between young people/ adolescents happens more than people would like to admit or want to see. There's an enlightening but kinda upsetting study by Struckman-Johnson et al. from 2003 that looks at this:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3813772

They looked at what they called "postrefusal sexual persistence", defining this as "persistent attempts to have sexual contact with someone who has already refused" - sexual harassment by any measure and sexual assault by most. In your case I do not know whether your gf has said anything to ever indicate she wasn't in the mood or was uncomfortable like "I'm feeling sleepy" or "let's just snuggle" but this is the kind of stuff they're talking about. They found that 40% of the 275 men and 26% of the 381 women interviewed admitted to this kind of abusive behaviour.

So, while this doesn't mean you didn't do anything wrong, it does suggest there is a serious problem in society when it comes to people crossing lines in the name of "seduction" and it's messed up. Reassuringly, it is probably not something the majority of men (or women) have done, but it's also not 0.1 of the population. And I think the best way of responding to that, even - or especially - if you've been called out by an ex or feel vaguely concerned or worried about your own past behaviour is to educate others.

Interrupt and don't laugh at rape jokes. Talk about enthusiastic consent. Maybe even give out leaflets on learning good consent (I've done this quite a few times and it's always gone a lot better than expected). Basically, try to be part of moving things towards positive change. Because I don't think you're evil or a monster. I think you're a sincere, reflective guy who is worried they hurt someone they loved. And there are worse things to be than that.

So yeh, in future, make sure you always practice verbal, enthusiastic consent i.e. only proceed if you're 100% sure that your partner is happy, consenting and into it; ask before you move onto something new (I've had an ex - not maliciously but somewhat thoughtlessly- try a completely new sexual thing on me we'd never done before without asking and I wasn't traumatised, but I was pretty uncomfortable. I absolutely wouldn't call them a monster); just check in and be alert to what's going on basically.

And if you ever feel like "I'm worried that we haven't been intimate for weeks" or "this is the last night I'm going to see her for months" or "she said she wanted to cuddle, but if I take it slowly I can escalate it into something sexier and that's seductive, right?" or "This is just what we need last night and she seems to be going along with it, though I wish she were smiling more... I think it's okay though" stand back, get out of bed and take a cold shower.

But really I think you know all of this already. So, it's not even info directed so much at you, just to any other guys reading to know this stuff wasn't already really obvious!

As for supporting your ex and making amends as best you can, obviously give her space and distance.

I would also highly recommend reading this two-page leaflet called entitled 'What to Do When Someone Tells you that you violated their boundaries, made them feel uncomfortable, or committed assault' (catchy I know!) because it's great and is easy to follow and gives you clear steps as to what you should do.

http://www.phillyspissed.net/sites/default/files/what%20to%20do%20when%20someone%20tells%20you.pdf

Assaulters are not villains. They/ we are not doomed. We are humyn, and how we address these situations (and ourselves), after being told of it, makes a Hell of a difference. Literally.

Please read it and I genuinely hope it's helpful.

Kind regards,
Sprock

I appreciate your reply sprock. It has been very informative, and helpful. I hope it will assist anyone else in my situation. Thank you.

Thanks, confused

I really hope you are able to take on board the positive stuff as well as the more informative 'moving forward' info from the leaflet cause I really do think you come across as a decent guy and it's very obvious that you feel badly about this and didn't intend to hurt your ex.

All the best,
Sprock

Put a frog into a vessel fill with water and start heating the water.
As the temperature of the water begins to rise, the frog adjust its body temperature accordingly.
The frog keeps adjusting its body temperature with the increasing temperature of the water. Just when the water is about to reach boiling point, the frog cannot adjust anymore. At this point the frog decides to jump out.
The frog tries to jump but it is unable to do so because it has lost all its strength in adjusting with the rising water temperature.
Very soon the frog dies.
What killed the frog?
Think about it!
I know many of us will say the boiling water. But the truth about what killed the frog was its own inability to decide when to jump out.
We all need to adjust with people & situations, but we need to be sure when we need to adjust & when we need to move on. There are times when we need to face the situation and take appropriate actions.
If we allow people to exploit us
physically, emotionally, financially, spiritually or mentally they will continue to do so.
Let us decide when to jump!
Let's jump while we still have the strength.
Good morning and have a great day beloved!

Alexander Andrew wrote:Put a frog into a vessel fill with water and start heating the water.
As the temperature of the water begins to rise, the frog adjust its body temperature accordingly.
The frog keeps adjusting its body temperature with the increasing temperature of the water. Just when the water is about to reach boiling point, the frog cannot adjust anymore. At this point the frog decides to jump out.
The frog tries to jump but it is unable to do so because it has lost all its strength in adjusting with the rising water temperature.
Very soon the frog dies.
What killed the frog?
Think about it!
I know many of us will say the boiling water. But the truth about what killed the frog was its own inability to decide when to jump out.
We all need to adjust with people & situations, but we need to be sure when we need to adjust & when we need to move on. There are times when we need to face the situation and take appropriate actions.
If we allow people to exploit us
physically, emotionally, financially, spiritually or mentally they will continue to do so.
Let us decide when to jump!
Let's jump while we still have the strength.
Good morning and have a great day beloved!

I sense this post comes from a good place - but I would like to add that the boiling frog metaphor is generally used to describe a tactic of abusers - very slowly and gradually pushing boundaries in such a way that the victim is literally unable to speak up or face/ escape a situation they have been forced into.

Either way, I don't think the metaphor is suited/ relevant to the OP's post. Personally I get the impression that they were/ are not an abuser, but nonetheless they made their ex-girlfriend feel uncomfortable. The main thing for them to do is to respect that narrative and the wishes/ needs of the young woman in question, while simultaneously not being unduely hard on themselves.

Confused, I would love to hear how you are getting on. I hope Christmas and New Years treated you well and that you spent some time free from anxiety!